Between Top & Bottom

[Leopard]

Note: This is not a thread about switches. Look elsewhere for that. Also, the terms used here were made up by LilAngel and myself. These are my own views on the subject and are meant for discussion, not to be a lecture.


Generally speaking, those that partake in BDSM are split via whether they are Tops or Bottoms (or Switches, which do both.) However beyond that, I've noticed a few other patterns within these two groups that I wanted to discuss. This is probably incomplete, especially as I don't know a whole lot about being a submissive


Dommy Subs

A Dommy Sub is generally someone who "tops from the bottom". It's someone who labels themselves as a submissive, but then - either consciously or subconsciously - seeks to control the flow of the session themselves. These types of people come in three varieties:

* Those that are actually Dom/mes actively seeking to control the person Topping them.

* Submissives who are simply very good at getting their own way. They may not even do it consciously.

* There are also those that mainly want to be given tasks that are what they are in the mood for at the time. They may end things if they don't go the way they want, or refuse to do tasks that they aren't interested in. On a side note, this is very common in those asking for dares.


Subby Doms

At the opposite end of the spectrum, Subby Doms are those in the role of Dominant that ... well, this part's a bit more complicated. There are those that:

* Are Doms (or at least filling that role) that simply don't have enough confidence in what they're doing and thus are able to be pushed around or at least swayed by the submissive that they're playing with (to varying degrees.) There can be a whole range of reasons for this; from inexperience to a general lack of confidence in themselves.

Another common issue is that the Dom treats the submissive as if they are made of fragile glass, to be broken or offended if pushed. This is basically the exact opposite of the uncaring, abusive, Dumbinant. If the submissive is experienced and patient, they can often guide the dominant into being more confident about their actions, moving away from this state. However, many submissives can be just of guilty of helping hold the pattern in place, as it's comfortable (if not fully satisfying) to them. There's probably a whole 'nother thread worth of discussion on this topic.

* Then there are those that Top, but prefer to work via fulfilling the submissive as best as possible (an example would be a partner that seeks to make the partner orgasm rather than themselves.) They will work using the submissive's interests rather than their own. This may be because:

• The Dom receives pleasure from satisfying a submissive more than being selfish with them.
• They're being guided by a dommy sub, as listed above.
• They're a paid professional. (?) (Really not an expert on this.)

There are many Dominants like this, and just as many that believe that this is wrong, and that a dominant should only ever be doing what they want (within limits obviously) rather than seeking to please a submissive.


This list is by no means definitive, and there are many, many people that blur between the lines above. This is simply meant as a starting point of common examples of types of people within the labels of Dominant and submissive.

Note: I'm also not saying that any of these are wrong or right. I believe that so long as the relationship is Safe, Sane, and Consensual, then the details are entirely up to the agreement of the two (or more) participating. Some may be situations in which one of the participants needs guidance, others may be fine as they are.

[Star Shadows]

An excellent and eloquent thread as always leopard... And on a greatly important topic. What a lot of people don't understand is that there are more than one type of dominant, and with that more than one type of submissive, and it seems to be something that seems to get lost in the small print. People see the generic image of a submissive or dominant... usually from erotica, pornography, lack of knowledge and pure idiocy I dare say... and think that that is how it all works and it is something that they must conform to to be accepted.

I know from a submissive, and lack of knowledge perspective I was guilty of this up until about 3 or 4 month ago, unwillingly sacrificing morals, friendship, self confidence, everything to conform to an image of the s/M world that was not representative of all that was available.

There is most probably as many types of dominants and submissive in this world as there are methods of playing with them as everyone works in different ways. There are few that can be deemed as right or wrong of this due to varying opinions however refrain from being a dumbinant at all costs as that is one of the few wrong ones.

The most important thing, I feel, is to look around, gain knowledge and opinion before making the jump to begin. Knowledge is your biggest ally, not from porn and fiction but from true knowledge, learn to walk before you can run.

[LilAngel]

I have nothing to do with this. But I do like this post!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Star Shadows

An excellent and eloquent thread as always leopard... And on a greatly important topic. What a lot of people don't understand is that there are more than one type of dominant, and with that more than one type of submissive, and it seems to be something that seems to get lost in the small print. People see the generic image of a submissive or dominant... usually from erotica, pornography, lack of knowledge and pure idiocy I dare say... and think that that is how it all works and it is something that they must conform to to be accepted.

I know from a submissive, and lack of knowledge perspective I was guilty of this up until about 3 or 4 month ago, unwillingly sacrificing morals, friendship, self confidence, everything to conform to an image of the s/M world that was not representative of all that was available.

There is most probably as many types of dominants and submissive in this world as there are methods of playing with them as everyone works in different ways. There are few that can be deemed as right or wrong of this due to varying opinions however refrain from being a dumbinant at all costs as that is one of the few wrong ones.

The most important thing, I feel, is to look around, gain knowledge and opinion before making the jump to begin. Knowledge is your biggest ally, not from porn and fiction but from true knowledge, learn to walk before you can run.

Good thread by Leo and good post by Shadow. As always really.

I can only view from my own perspective, and to be honest I didn't research a whole lot. Having said that, I also didn't, and don't pretend to have all the knowledge in the world.

Its my style as a person which is different - learn by experience. Its a different style of learning which is a lot of fun and gives a unique perspective, but takes more time to learn and doesn't allow for any arrogance at all.

It's arrogance that could say "You know how it's done from porn/movies".
Really, arrogance has no place in BDSM anyway. It gets in the way of the core of BDSM which to me is togetherness and the ability to judge the other person's desires at any one time.

Also, arrogance gets in the way of simply ASKING stuff. Your sub isnt just a rag doll that goes "oooh" "aaaah" at specific touches - he or she is a wonderful person that can change on a daily basis. Communicate a LOT and you're able to play with them and take advantage to more sensitive spots.

All in all to me BDSM is another way to spell "Love" and "Fun".

Im sure a lot of people can now guess what kind of Dom and sub I am (yes, I'm a switch!).

As a Dom, I strive to do varied scenes that really make the sub squirm because of the teasing. So I will do things the sub really really loves and is in the mood for, and when they get a bit too horny, I'll do things that I really like.
Those things tend to cool down the scene a bit for the sub and for me too and hey its things that I want to do . Then things tend to get more intense towards the end.

I'm not a subby Dom though since I do keep control of the scene. But I do love to see the sub have pleasure since it heightens my own.


As a sub, I'm definately outside your definitions.
Im not a dommy sub by any means, I love to go fully submissive.
At the same time though, I do tend to disobey my Dom just because it tends to push her to be more harsh. Also I love to communicate and guide her a little bit to my most sensitive spots.

All in all I am more biased towards subbing at the moment. Mostly because I have dommed more. But I love to watch and talk and see her fulfilling my desires; not the way I would but the way she would.

Doing things the Dom's way I think is much, much more fun because its usually a completely different way and i think it has a very personal touch to it.

[sweetsong]

Interesting, Leo.

I'm not sure if I have a response. Other than, yeah, people are different and do things different. I never thought of trying to label and group them though.

But like you said, as long as the two people involved are safe and happy, it's all good. (:

Obviously, not every person has the same personality, so not every person will dom/sub the same way. You just have to find someone who fits with you.

[Leopard]

Originally Posted by LilAngel

I have nothing to do with this. But I do like this post!

I was just giving you credit for the names dommy sub and subby dom.

The post is all my own views and nothing to do with LilAngel

[Nixie]

I like this for the fact that one everyone is different and have different needs and need to be handled in a different way. Not everyone has the same desires, or strengths and they can only strive to learn (hopefully) I know in the beginning I was horrible for "opening my mouth" Or "speaking out of context" But then again I'm also a sucker for punishments. So what does that make me? DO we need to label each and every Dom and Sub? I'm not sure that it needs done. In some aspects maybe. It probably helps some just getting into the playing field so to speak.

[Leopard]

My intention with this thread wasn't to label everyone (I hate labels!) but rather just to show that there are lots of different inbetweens that could be roughly labeled in being a bit less towards either extreme of controlling or controlled. You could also do strict doms, harsh doms, mean doms, playful doms, pert subs, sweet subs, etc. etc. etc. if you wanted to do it in moods, for example.

A lot of dominants and submissives think that they have to be some sort of ideal in controlling or controlled, and that's not true at all. It's your relationship, you can be whatever those involved agree upon and enjoy. Changing your personality for the sake of some ideal is stupid. Be yourself. Then again you may be dissatisfied with certain aspects of your behaviour (as I was) and unable to identify them until you see them written down. So this thread is also a list of possibilities to help that. It helped me *shrug*

Merlin's going to kill me for this >.>

In a relationship there are circumstances where influence is normal (most of them; a lack of influence in either dommyness or subbyness from the other end most likely suggests a lack of connection or humanity between the pair) and other circumstances in which that influence is forced or altered in some way, which may or may not be as good (Merlin has his own opinion on this that he may share.)

Note: All of the above may or may not make any sense, due to my habit of thinking by writing it out and hitting post anyway (being half awake has nothing to do with it...)

[Nixie]

Originally Posted by Leopard

A lot of dominants and submissives think that they have to be some sort of ideal in controlling or controlled, and that's not true at all. It's your relationship, you can be whatever those involved agree upon and enjoy. Changing your personality for the sake of some ideal is stupid. Be yourself. Then again you may be dissatisfied with certain aspects of your behaviour (as I was) and unable to identify them until you see them written down. So this thread is also a list of possibilities to help that. It helped me *shrug*

*nods*
BE YOURSELF is the most important aspect to remember and if one "person" doesn't fit then there is nothing wrong with moving on to fill that void. Trial and error. May as well.

[Star Shadows]

Originally Posted by Nixie

*nods*
BE YOURSELF is the most important aspect to remember and if one "person" doesn't fit then there is nothing wrong with moving on to fill that void. Trial and error. May as well.

I aggree with this you're better off being individual and being yourself than trying to be something you're not and paying the price in the future. in the long run you're better off using "trial and improvement" and having to take loger to find what you want than finding yourself trapped

[Nixie]

Originally Posted by Star Shadows

"trial and improvement"

Ohhhhhhhhhh I like that!

[SubMissChievous]

It's very interesting how an original post can be read and interepreted in completely different ways...

While reading your post Leo I didn't really get the feeling you were describing different types of subs and Doms but more explaining some behaviors that exist in some relationships. But I have to admit that «subby dom» and «dommy sub» sound a heck of a lot label-ish Perhaps because they don't really come close to explain some of these patterns in behaviors to me as these can be present for many different reasons =)

To use the comparison with topping from the bottom (or bottoming from the top for Doms) one thing to understand is that there can be an enormous difference between not allowing more than a certain amount of control and actually taking away that control from the Dom just like there is an equally big difference with deciding not to exercise more than a certain amount of control and relinquishing it to the sub. And in between both you will find thousands of different actions, reactions and reasons behind them... For example, some subs will react in some of the ways you described above as a «nervous reflex», some others to provoke their Doms to get some punishments (S.A.M.s), some will react like this only in certain situations involving particular activities that will trigger the behavior, some will act up only with certain Doms and not with others... I could spend all evening giving specific examples here All I'm getting down to is that I agree that these behaviors are present in some submissives and Dominants but I don't think that most of these show a «submissive side» to Doms who, consciously or unconsciously, decide not to use more than a certain amount of control and vice versa.

Of course, as you said, some people work fine with these patterns and if both partners are fine with it then that's cool. But if either one or both see it as a problem then it needs to be addressed and and may need to be worked on depending on how big and how recurring the situation is. But in general and concerning those behaviors described above both for Doms and subs I think we all thrive on reaching certain goals and want to get as close as possible to our ideals. And sometimes some of our behaviors, feelings and reactions can get in the way of reaching these. So then it's important to speak about them together and work both individually and together to improve

[Leopard]

Originally Posted by Chloe

It's very interesting how an original post can be read and interepreted in completely different ways...

While reading your post Leo I didn't really get the feeling you were describing different types of subs and Doms but more explaining some behaviors that exist in some relationships. But I have to admit that «subby dom» and «dommy sub» sound a heck of a lot label-ish Perhaps because they don't really come close to explain some of these patterns in behaviors to me as these can be present for many different reasons =)

This is true; I used the labels because when I was first discussing it, these were the labels we used. You are right though that these things occur for a lot more reasons than simply "how someone is." It may just be an occasional thing or with one person or... yeah this could go on forever. This was why I was trying to get the topic started rather than define it - it's really hard to pin down the topic with the right words.

Originally Posted by Chloe

To use the comparison with topping from the bottom (or bottoming from the top for Doms) one thing to understand is that there can be an enormous difference between not allowing more than a certain amount of control and actually taking away that control from the Dom just like there is an equally big difference with deciding not to exercise more than a certain amount of control and relinquishing it to the sub. And in between both you will find thousands of different actions, reactions and reasons behind them... For example, some subs will react in some of the ways you described above as a «nervous reflex», some others to provoke their Doms to get some punishments (S.A.M.s), some will react like this only in certain situations involving particular activities that will trigger the behavior, some will act up only with certain Doms and not with others... I could spend all evening giving specific examples here All I'm getting down to is that I agree that these behaviors are present in some submissives and Dominants but I don't think that most of these show a «submissive side» to Doms who, consciously or unconsciously, decide not to use more than a certain amount of control and vice versa.

There is a big difference between those deciding not to use a certain amount of control and those who have it taken away by the bottom - but again these things can often chain together, a sub who takes control from a Dom is more likely to have success with a less controlling Dom, etc. I completely agree that it actually has nothing to do with a submissive side ... it's just the way that 'someone' explained it to me the first time and it's kind of stuck as my name for it; "less dommy" doesn't actually mean the same thing as "more subby" for a basic way to describe it. Words are giving me a headache >.>