A word of advice to all the Doms and subs out there.

[Dutch]

A word of advice to all the Dom’s and subs out there.

While reading on this wonderful site I have found loads of information regarding M/s situations that is very helpful. However, I have also found a misconception that seems to be rather persistent.

I have seen some threads about the subject, for example by LilAngel and Star Shadows so credit to them, but considering it’s a very important subject I think another thread is in order.

Special thanks to Star Shadows and Chloe for helping me.


I'd like to address the common held belief among Doms that a slave is the 'property' of their master, an object so to speak. In fact this couldn’t be father from the truth. It is a dominants goal, their task, to meet the needs of a slave, make sure they are safe and content in their surroundings while with you. It should make you happy to make them happy, just as it is for them.
The fact that a slave is obedient is just a reward for the work you do to achieve that goal instead of the basis of your M/s relationship. You earn their obedience as you earn their trust by giving them your trust and care.
As you should have gathered by now your relationship shouldn’t be based on the slave’s fear for his Master, but rather mutual trust. A relationship based on trust is much stronger than one based on fear and allows both the Master and the slave to grow as persons as well as grow into the BDSM lifestyle. This gives you an important benefit which I will explain later.

A related issue is the frequently seen desire of a Master to push and break the limits of the slave. There are quite a few topics saying “I have disobeyed my Master” and “I didn’t do ---” where the task they were given went against limits. This under all circumstances when dealing with absolute limits is WRONG. As the last paragraph said, the goal of the dominant is to make sure the slave is safe and content in their surroundings, not to push their limits as it is one of your likes. In pushing the slave past their limits and punishing them for becoming uncomfortable and not wanting to break those limits are you not punishing your slave for your own failings as a caring master?

However this doesn’t mean that likes and limits are set in stone, people experience things that change their views, and are entitled to change their mind. I have realized this on a personal level as I found myself in a wonderful s/M relationship lately, which made me realize that not only are submissives entitled to change their mind, but also in many cases have varying likes and limits depending on who they are playing with / serving under. For example, my mistress enjoys cross-dressing which helps me to enjoy it, to the point that something I thought was a dislike/soft limit is now a like.
This tends to depend on the strength of the relationship and the trust bonds inside it. Our trust and, in fact, love for one another also allowed both of us to redefine our limits. Both our soft limits can be pushed by each other, but only by each other. There are quite a few things I wouldn’t do for any other person that I would do for her.
That is the benefit I was referring to earlier, as a slave grows more comfortable in the relationship they will allow, sometimes even ask you them to do more. The slave can ask the Master to push his SOFT limits. But as i said in these relationship it should not be the masters decision as to when to push it should be a joint decision, talked through to cast light on any shadows they might have. Therefore pushing a limit can only be done out of trust and care, never fear.

In reading this you may get the impression that I am asking you to never punish a slave. That is wrong as well. As a Master you can ask the slave to do things and expect them to do them after you have earned their obedience. However, punish your slave ONLY when you know they are comfortable with the task they should have completed, and be fair and proportional in your punishments. Don’t make punishments excessively long or traumatizing. Also strive to teach them through their punishments.

So all subs and Dom’s out there, please base your relationship on trust rather than fear. Your scenes and dares will be much more enjoyable, both persons can grow into the relationship and the sub can ask the Dom to push their limits.

[Mere]

I agree, and for some reason, "Thanks" isn't working for me, so I have to post this.
Once again, if the relationship is based on fear of the slave, then the dom is a FAIL, he/she isn't near a good one. I also agree, that the slave should enjoy things as much as the dom does.

[Star Shadows]

I am really glad you made a post on this. It is something that many of the doms on this site need hammering into them (preferably with a big pointy hitty stick) I see too many aspiring doms coming through that think they have to conform to the 'hard assed fear bringing harbringer of doom' bullshit that they think is the path to being a true master. When it isnt the case the only relationships I have had that I regretted losing have been ones of compassion and not fear... That one sucked.

Originally Posted by Dutch

While reading on this wonderful site I have found loads of information regarding M/s situations that is very helpful. However, I have also found a misconception that seems to be rather persistent.

I have seen some threads about the subject, for example by LilAngel and Star Shadows so credit to them, but considering it’s a very important subject I think another thread is in order.

We aren't the only ones, there are so many people that do good on this site (leo, chloe, dare and jenna<3 to name just a small few) just to name a few it's just a massive shame that there are more that don't, crying shame. But crying won't help. Never has, Never will. So threads like this is what we need, threads that teach and inspire people to (in the words of flyleaf) "Arise and be all that you dreamed" To stand up and take the plate for themselves. To stand as one (which is where I stop talking on this point at fear of making this into a shakesperian before we go forth into battle speach)

I'd like to address the common held belief among Doms that a slave is the 'property' of their master, an object so to speak. In fact this couldn’t be father from the truth. It is a dominants goal, their task, to meet the needs of a slave, make sure they are safe and content in their surroundings while with you. It should make you happy to make them happy, just as it is for them.
The fact that a slave is obedient is just a reward for the work you do to achieve that goal instead of the basis of your M/s relationship. You earn their obedience as you earn their trust by giving them your trust and care.
As you should have gathered by now your relationship shouldn’t be based on the slave’s fear for his Master, but rather mutual trust. A relationship based on trust is much stronger than one based on fear and allows both the Master and the slave to grow as persons as well as grow into the BDSM lifestyle. This gives you an important benefit which I will explain later.

I couldn't agree with this bit more if I tried. Too many doms think it is their right and their goal to get as much self pleasure from a submissive as is physically possible, this is the view of a selfish and narcissitic tool and not what being a dominant should be about. The relations built on trust and communication first then the kink ect are stronger on most occasions, your master should help you grown not back you into a corner by building up a sense of fear.

A related issue is the frequently seen desire of a Master to push and break the limits of the slave. There are quite a few topics saying “I have disobeyed my Master” and “I didn’t do ---” where the task they were given went against limits. This under all circumstances when dealing with absolute limits is WRONG. As the last paragraph said, the goal of the dominant is to make sure the slave is safe and content in their surroundings, not to push their limits as it is one of your likes. In pushing the slave past their limits and punishing them for becoming uncomfortable and not wanting to break those limits are you not punishing your slave for your own failings as a caring master?

Alas again me shal stick gold sticky stars on your work, I know that especially with my 2nd master I felt he failed me. He pushed past 2 of my limits by making me feel that I had no choice because of the fear and brainwashing he imposed on me. He was my first real master and he exploited the fact I had little knowledge... and you know what? He made limits out of likes and soft limits into things that for a long time would bring me to tears at the mention of the, and broke my trust in dominants for a long time because he didn't make me feel safe and only pushed for his own wants telling me I was a 'bad slave' id I didn't like the things he did. If you think what he did was right leave now you don't belong in this lifestyle. A true relationship is based on trust and compassion among other things NOT fear, brainwashing and minipulation EVER.

This tends to depend on the strength of the relationship and the trust bonds inside it. Our trust and, in fact, love for one another also allowed both of us to redefine our limits. Both our soft limits can be pushed by each other, but only by each other. There are quite a few things I wouldn’t do for any other person that I would do for her.
That is the benefit I was referring to earlier, as a slave grows more comfortable in the relationship they will allow, sometimes even ask you them to do more. The slave can ask the Master to push his SOFT limits. But as i said in these relationship it should not be the masters decision as to when to push it should be a joint decision, talked through to cast light on any shadows they might have. Therefore pushing a limit can only be done out of trust and care, never fear.

I love it when people get what soft limits are. Soo many people take them as limits or as a 'posh name' for dislikes. WRONG. A soft limit is something that at first should be kept away from just like a limit while the relationship is in its baby steps, then as the relationship grows, the trust grows and the submissive grows can then begin to be discussed, Why it is a soft limit? How they can go about graually breaking it and conducting research. This is by no means a quick progress but it shouldn't be. Often soft limits are formed because of a bad experience a 'trauma', or a fear, not a lighthearted "meehh it doesnt sound like fun."
(chloe's eyes only>)

Spoiler:

Pillows :p

A proof of a relationship is how well soft limit are handled, bad doms will rush it, pushing through all limits, and scare their submissive into a state of distrust. Whereas a good dominant will guide a submissive through it after a great deal of preperation, research and conversation, they will take their time and gradually build up to the moment where that soft limit is no longer a limit.

In reading this you may get the impression that I am asking you to never punish a slave. That is wrong as well. As a Master you can ask the slave to do things and expect them to do them after you have earned their obedience. However, punish your slave ONLY when you know they are comfortable with the task they should have completed, and be fair and proportional in your punishments. Don’t make punishments excessively long or traumatizing. Also strive to teach them through their punishment

Again correct. Punish only what is needed to be punished and preferably as a last resort. Never punish out of bordome or because of something out of thier control. Punishments should be quick and independant of other factors so no "You've done this already and it didn't teach you last time so I will make it even worse." Punish for the miststake/failing/ dissobedience not others in the past. And for fuck sake remember proportiaonal in the same way as if someone threw a rock at you you would not throw a nuclear warhead back, do not punish a small thing like forgetting to call you master once with them having to lash their hole body until they bleed. Excessive punishment will make your sub less inclined to be around you because they fear moving for being punished. Don't scare your submissive away

And now I feel I have said enough for now, as I am sure I have GCSE coursework peices shorter than this. Remember fear is not the way to go about it, and in the case you feel afraid of your dominant, leave or talk to someone who will help you. You don't have to suffer injustice and abuse alone and in silence.

[SeeNaked]

I just wanted to say Thank you for this post!

I realize some errors that I have made in my thinking regarding being a master, and this has helped me see what I may be doing wrong.

Thank you again!!

[Anjelen]

Originally Posted by Star_Shadows

...

I'd say more, but Star_Shadows pretty much covered what i would've wanted to say.
Great thread, Dutch. Should be stickified for the perusal of every Dominant and Submissive on the planet. Or at least on GetDare.

[Midnight]

I would also like to agree with Anjelen and have this post stickied. EVERYBODY should read this.

[SubMissChievous]

First let me echo Star Shadows and thank you, Dutch, for making this thread. There's a lot of things in your post that are important here and like I told you privately I can relate and will comment some of those based on past experience I've had.

But first I'd like to mention that, yes, it seems to be quite common to see new and inexperienced dominants come by and appear as if they need to put on a certain act or mask to be taken seriously or whatever. Sometimes (I would even dare say many times) it stems from the impression they get from reading fantasy stories or watching porn and have yet to realize that it's not exactly how the real world and relationships work; some other times it can even be the result of «peer pressure». You know... those people who think they know the «One True Way» and are always more than happy to want to teach everyone they can influence how to do things the «right way»... their way... Of course, it's understandable that when one joins a new community they will naturally want to «fit in» and consequently can be easily influenced. So my little piece of advice for anyone new at this (and this goes for both Doms and subs) is this: you're not doing anything wrong by being yourself Take whatever others tell you with a grain of salt and apply what works and feels right for you. If you feel that you have to step out of your own personality or views to adapt then it may not be the right way for you. Listen, observe, talk and ask questions but remain true to yourself.

Originally Posted by Dutch

The fact that a slave is obedient is just a reward for the work you do to achieve that goal instead of the basis of your M/s relationship. You earn their obedience as you earn their trust by giving them your trust and care.

You know what, reading this reminds me of that PM I shared on Star's thread yesterday. This guy who was all «how come you guys are given rights and choices, that's not D/s...». Well, guess what? Yes, I have rights... In fact, I have the right to disobey every single and orders and rules I'm being given. But I don't. Because I choose to. See? This looks to me like at least one right and one choice. And I make the clear decision to obey when I'm happy and aware that I can trust and be cared for. Of course, one of the satisfactions a submissive gets out of a D/s relationship is to make the other happy but let's not forget that this is still a relationship. We do this because we get something out of it too. If needs and at least a fair amount of desires and expectations are not being met then I don't know a lot of submissives who would be happy in the long run with a one-way dynamic.

Originally Posted by Dutch

A related issue is the frequently seen desire of a Master to push and break the limits of the slave. There are quite a few topics saying “I have disobeyed my Master” and “I didn’t do ---” where the task they were given went against limits. This under all circumstances when dealing with absolute limits is WRONG. As the last paragraph said, the goal of the dominant is to make sure the slave is safe and content in their surroundings, not to push their limits as it is one of your likes. In pushing the slave past their limits and punishing them for becoming uncomfortable and not wanting to break those limits are you not punishing your slave for your own failings as a caring master?

Still too many people can't see the difference with a limit (hard or soft) and a dislike and I, for one, can't understand how they can't see that difference. Those limits are in place for a reason: safety. Be it physical, mental or emotional. With that in mind if a sub will not or cannot do something then what's the point of pushing? Discussing them, seeing where they come from is not only fair but should be done from time to time both from the sub and the Dom's side. This way, maybe, some of those can be worked out. Pushing just because a Dom thinks he can is most likely to create an atmosphere of fear and mistrust not to mention the consequences it can and usually has on both the sub and the relationship.

Originally Posted by Dutch

However this doesn’t mean that likes and limits are set in stone, people experience things that change their views, and are entitled to change their mind. I have realized this on a personal level as I found myself in a wonderful s/M relationship lately, which made me realize that not only are submissives entitled to change their mind, but also in many cases have varying likes and limits depending on who they are playing with / serving under. For example, my mistress enjoys cross-dressing which helps me to enjoy it, to the point that something I thought was a dislike/soft limit is now a like.

This tends to depend on the strength of the relationship and the trust bonds inside it. Our trust and, in fact, love for one another also allowed both of us to redefine our limits. Both our soft limits can be pushed by each other, but only by each other. There are quite a few things I wouldn’t do for any other person that I would do for her.

This is very true and the reason why I praised and liked this post so much when I first read it btw As a relationship grows and you get to know and understand the other better you also get to understand why a certain activity appeals to them so much. So you get with time a different perspective. There are at least a couple of things that I would never let anyone go near when entering a new relationship. Because of past experiences as well as how I emotionally react to them. Anyone who hasn't known me for a while would simply not be able to handle them no matter how careful and understanding they could be. It's just that these are way too personal and emotional for me to share at the beginning or in a casual realtionship. But as you said depending on how deep and strong the relationship gets I can not only trust enough to feel safe but want and even need to go there to these places I wouldn't do for anyone else.

That's why I really don't get it when I read such things as ads that ask for a sub to state their limits once and then they can't change it later... People change, grow, evolve... Isn't it the point of any kind of relationship after all? Well, I guess it is unless your main objective is simply to get off and take as much as you can from the other without caring much about the other and/or possible consequences I suppose...

Originally Posted by Dutch

That is the benefit I was referring to earlier, as a slave grows more comfortable in the relationship they will allow, sometimes even ask you them to do more. The slave can ask the Master to push his SOFT limits. But as i said in these relationship it should not be the masters decision as to when to push it should be a joint decision, talked through to cast light on any shadows they might have. Therefore pushing a limit can only be done out of trust and care, never fear.

I would even go a step further here... I see it as not only a benefit for the Dom when a sub allows him to go deeper and further but as a way of showing how much trust and how they closer they feel with him. Some even call it a «gift». That's why I'm personally not a huge fan of using whatever soft limits a sub has to set punishments. More often than not this is counterproductive to the effect a punishments should have. What it does instead is creating a climate of fear... fear of the Dom and of the act that is already causing the sub to feel uncomfortable or scared of in the first place. So if the soft limit is further linked to negative emotions and it will naturally cause even more negative reactions and the sub will find himself even more reluctant about it.

And, yes I agree with what everyone said so far: Excellent post! Always nice to read from others' experiences and, of course, the good ones too

@ Anjelen and Midnight: I have already included it to Threads of Notes (which will be given a nice shiny makeover very soon btw)