The Fiend's Eye: Punishment & Discipline

[Fiendish]

This is something I've been thinking about for awhile, so I'm sharing it here, with you wonderful(and some less-than-wonderful) people of getDare.

I do hope this will be good enough to be companion to No Limits, Being a Dom, and my own For the subs and slaves out there.

The Fiend's Eye: Punishment & Discipline

First, to answer the question probably running through your mind: Why would I bring up the topic of punishment & discipline?

I bring it up because many people don't understand the difference. Or, if they know the difference, they have a hard time differentiating between the two. So, I'm going to do my best to explain the differences, how to differentiate the two, and when to apply each one. I will also include what I hope will be a good reference on making the punishment fit the crime, and using discipline correctly.

I'll try to define them as best as I can as they relate to M/s relationships, but bear with me- it's not an easy thing to define, so I'm trying...

Definitions:

Punishment: A method of correcting incorrect behavior in a slave("slave" being used to describe slaves and subs for the rest of this piece) that is set and usually executed by the Master("Master" being used to describe Masters, Mistresses, Doms, and Dommes for the rest of this piece). This is something the slave shouldn't like in the least.

Discipline: A method of getting the slave to do what the Master wants, not necessarily to correct a behavior. Discipline doesn't have to be something the slave hates- slightly uncomfortable, but not something the slave hates.

The Difference:

As the definitions I provided hinted at, there are, indeed, some differences. Sometimes it's hard to know what's being used, or what should be used in a given situation.

Let's start with punishment, because it's a bit easier to recognize when this is needed:

If the slave is doing something wrong, this is what you would use. But then, what's wrong? Different Masters have different definitions, keep that in mind and adjust accordingly.

Example 1: Your slave just came back and told you that she was unable to fulfill part of the schedule you set for her. Find out the reason she failed to do what she was supposed to do.

Assume the answer isn't something you find satisfactory as a reason- she was a bit tired, she just forgot, things like that- then, you would apply a punishment. Remember, a punishment is something the slave doesn't like at all. (NOTE: punishments should NOT cross a slave's hard limits. Soft limits, yes, hard limits, NO!!!)

Example 2: Your slave just came back with a report that she wasn't able to complete a task you set for her. Find out the reasons.

Again, assume the answer isn't satisfactory. Again, punishment is applied.

Now, let's move to the harder of the two to identify and apply. Discipline is something used to get the slave to do what you, the Master, wants them to do. More of a slightly uncomfortable poke than anything, really. Not necessarily something the slave hates, but make sure they don't love it, either.

Example 1: Your slave just forgot to add "Master" to a statement. Discipline is the gentle, but uncomfortable, poke in the right direction. Discipline can be applied verbally("What do you need to say?", "Forgetting something?", etc.)

Also, touch/feel can be used. A gentle smack with a belt/whip/crop/etc- not a hard blow, but something that stings just enough to make the slave realize her mistake and want to correct it.

Example 2:* Say the slave isn't where you want her to be. Assume you told her well and good where you want her to be, but for some reason, she's not in the right spot. Something as simple as "Bad girl, you should be there," could suffice as discipline in this case. Again, you can also use relatively gentle smacks to make her realize the mistake.

*The lines blur a bit in example two, but I prefer in that situation to use discipline instead of punishment, so that's where I put this situation.

Making the Punishment Fit the Crime:

Sometimes, I notice people on the extreme side of the spectrum: people who will impose an extreme punishment("extreme" being relative to the slave in question) for something that would, in my opinion, be corrected by a much lesser punishment- or, perhaps something that didn't need a punishment, but instead, discipline(refer to the examples under Discipline).

The most effective thing a Master can do to correct a slave's actions is to make the punishment fit the crime.

Example 1: Say you've set rules for your slave's bathroom usage(number of times a day, specific times allowed, specific places allowed, etc.), and for some reason, the slave decided not to do it once or twice. Let's assume it was done intentionally, just to cover my bases.

An appropriate punishment(according to the "make it fit the crime" model) would be to change the rules slightly for a set period of time(a few days, a week- use your judgment), making it a bit harder for them- making them go outside, for example. Another one is to re-set the number of times or times of the day the slave is allowed to go to the bathroom, and introduce a laxative.

Example 2: Say your slave decided to ignore you for a short period of time. Again, assume it's intentional.

An appropriate punishment would be to take away any markings you have your slave wear(especially if she likes them), basically take anything she likes as a slave away for the duration of this punishment. Have your slave find a ping-pong ball or a ball similar in size, and have her kneel facing the wall. The slave has to keep the ball held up against the wall with just her nose, and she can't lean in on it- just barely enough contact to hold it up there. Hands folded behind her back, knees perpendicular to the floor. Loss of the ball or leg posture restarts the time. The amount of time should be determined by how long the slave ignored you- if it was a whole day, make the time somewhere around an hour or so- trust me, she will be there more than an hour.

If it was for, say, two or three days, have her do this every day for a set period of time(a few days, a week- again, use your judgment).

For the most extreme cases of disobedience, you can use a temporary removal from your service- a set period of time where the slave is you slave in the future only. This can range from simply setting a timeframe when the slave won't act as a slave to you, to a complete block on contact for that time.

Also, if the disobedience is extreme and repetitive, you may want to consider a permanent discharge from your service.

Applying Discipline:

This will be a short section, as I've touched on it earlier.

Basically, discipline is used to get the slave to do what you want her to do. It's for some of the minor problems, usually used with newer slaves.

It could be as simple as "Bad girl". It could be a little bit of pain- not a lot, just enough to make her realize a small mistake was made.

NOTE: This is NOT an absolute guide, each relationship is slightly different. This is designed as a general guide to help get started or to try and more clearly define the terms and generally when to apply them.

[MistressMarina]

And no one's replied to this post? Shocking! I agree with the punishment must fit the crime. I've heard of some pretty extreme punishments for things such as taking a long time to answer. It's pretty ridiculous. The master just punishes the slave so he can see what he wants to see.

MM

[Merlin]

You are right by saying that this thread should get attention. Because of that i did put it in my signature some time ago (together with some others) Never answered here because i thought fiendish already said the important stuff Still it is always good if it gets some attention.

[Fiendish]

You people keep making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside

[Bandit|Queen]

OMG! You are evil

The ping pong ball thing would be horrible not only becuase it would be hard but I'd be tempted to laugh which would just make it harder and get me told off evem more. (Hopes Master hasn't read this one) The only thing I would say is that after a punishment the Dominant in my opinion should say in short once again why the submissive was punished and move on not dwelling on the punishment or mistake.(might have been said and i missed it) And sometimes a little reassurance is good that even though I've done something wrong I havnt failed all round.

Oh and for me shouting makes me switch off and not listen, my Master calmly telling me how disapointed he is is much worse! And with discipline normally he can give me "The look" and il get the idea.

One good punishment is to get the submissive to hold a difficult position for a set period of time but not telling them how long that will be. I actually do this with my Master normally because we both enjoy it but it would make a very good punishment. One I've done is to kneel down hands behind my neck sitting back on my legs, pins and needles set in pretty quick and it takes alot of self controll not to just give up on it. I've held that position for half an hour before with my Master just watching and get a kick out of it but would think others would hate it.

[vampyrepain]

I've been thinking about some similar things and had some time to write them down so I am replying to this thread even though it is quite aged. I hope that some of the people who have read and contributed already will take a second look to see what I've added. Maybe this thread has hope for a decent discussion yet:

To start, I am not sure I agree with your definitions of punishment and discipline. I realize that these are difficult to define in terms of a BDSM (or M/s) relationship. Therefore, to reach somewhat of a consensus, I will include the definitions of a few terms from the American heritage dictionary (noun forms only as the transitive verbs just describe the action of applying the nouns for the most part):

punishment:
1. a. The act or an instance of punishing.
b.The condition of being punished.
2.A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: "The severity of the punishment must . . . be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated" (Simone Weil).
3.Rough handling; mistreatment: These old skis have taken a lot of punishment over the years.

Discipline
n.
1. Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior, especially training that produces moral or mental improvement.
2. Controlled behavior resulting from disciplinary training; self-control.
3. a. Control obtained by enforcing compliance or order.
b. A systematic method to obtain obedience: a military discipline.
c. A state of order based on submission to rules and authority: a teacher who demanded discipline in the classroom.
4. Punishment intended to correct or train.
5. A set of rules or methods, as those regulating the practice of a church or monastic order.
6. A branch of knowledge or teaching.

Torture
1. a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. something causing severe pain or anguish.

I think the second definition for punishment is particularly applicable to BDSM relationships. I think Fiend's definition makes too much allusion to application of punishment as an aspect of discipline; punishment can be a form of discipline if it is used to train (see discipline definition 4) but is not in itself a training method.

Discipline encompasses much more than punishment. It includes control of behavior, obedience, submission based on rules and authority...essentially, it is so multifaceted that discipline has many different applications to a BDSM relationship.

Torture is often a buzzword thrown around in post 9/11 US society that has negative connotations beyond those associated with punishment. Punishment is something that parents do to their children to correct wrongdoing while torture is a "human rights" violation. Unfortunately, slavery is also a "human rights" violation so we must default to "slave rights" instead. "Slave rights" have been discussed elsewhere on these forums with no consensus (although IMHO, this could be due to each D/s relationship having its own unique dynamics) but I think everyone here could agree that torturing a slave under the umbrella of safe, sane, and consensual is acceptable. Because of this, it seems reasonable to torture a slave as a punishment in certain circumstances.

Additionally, punishment is imposed for wrongdoing. Masochists derive sexual gratification from pain and anguish and therefore are intrinsically hard to punish with conventional methods. Logically, this could be something they don't find sexually appealing, or it could be a punishment they find sexually gratifying carried out with a severity as to preclude their enjoyment. This becomes interesting in internet relationships; if you are in a long term committed relationship with a sub, your ties to the relationship might be strong enough to make them carry out a punishment (penalty for wrongdoing) that would be effective discipline (modifying the behavior that warranted the punishment.) More often, because of the transitory nature of many of these online "hook-ups" this become a role playing game where the sub intentionally acts up to receive a punishment that they find sexually gratifying. The Dom puts up with this because they also find giving the punishment sexually gratifying so they pretend that the punishment they give is actually working to discipline (change the behavior of) the sub. This may be all that some people want, which could explain the high number of people who post in the personals sections and then say that they have found the master/slave they are looking for in the first person that replies to their post. I am more interested in long committed relationships where the Dom gets to know the sub well enough to care about them and to impose punishments as a form of discipline. Additionally, in these types of relationships, the sub respects the judgment of the Dom and is committed enough to the relationship that they will complete punishments that a)they do not enjoy, b)they do not derive sexual gratification from, and c) that push their limits or are severe enough that they actually affect a behavioral change.

Although it is a bit off topic, I also wanted to touch on the idea of limits as it is often presented here. In real-life, some limits are dictated by laws, common sense, and the fact that the sub can "safe word" or communicate to the Dom if they need. Therefore, not every limit must be well defined at the start of a session or relationship. Additionally, as a relationship progresses these limits are discussed and they evolve with the relationship. For example, a common limit I see here is "nothing permanent". This makes sense, but if the two people got to know each other well enough to become an important part of each other’s lives, and the Dom and sub decided that the sub should get a tattoo of the Dom's mark, this would probably be acceptable to the sub even though it violated a hard limit (and would not be a condemnable request from the Dom either.) I suppose the simple solution to this is to continue the discussion of limits as D/s relationship progresses. I guess when I think it out well, I am driving at the issue that many people here use the word limit to refer to dislikes, which is very different. Because of this confusion of terms, it might be appropriate for a Dom to ask a sub to do something against their “limits" as a punishment for the exact reason that it is something the sub strongly dislikes.

However, I digress...Thank you for reading what I wrote. If you want to keep philosophizing, then we can keep this tread up. If you like what I had to say then feel free to toss me some "rep" in return for my efforts. If you disagree with me, post why you think I'm wrong in a well throughout post. If you want to find a serious D/s relationship, and you think we might have compatible ideas about what makes a D/s relationship, check out my post here: http://www.getdare.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=9373.

[Fiendish]

Good addition! Nice to see this thread back up

[SubMissChievous]

Ever since this thread was posted I had thoughts about replying but didn’t because I realize by reading posts here & also from some of the chats I’ve had with different members that I have very different outllok than most when it comes to this subject. Yet after re-reading it this morning & thinking about it I notice that there seem to be a few elements I could add & also one little detail that… well that bugs me (which I’ll point a bit further in this post).

One thing that need to be said I think is that slaves don’t have the same feelings about punishments. Some seem to like them & even be turned on by the idea of being punished while some others hate them… and some others really detest them to a point that they can even be scared of them. I am one of those. In fact, it’s not really the punishments that I fear but the feeling I have when I know I have failed at something & knowing I have disappointed my Master. That is most of the time already pretty bad for me in itself. Not that I won’t accept a punishment or will try to dodge it if I know I have deserve it. But yeah those negative feelings can sometimes stay with me for a while afterwards. So my point is that it is important for a Master to know how the slave feel about them & also what their past experiences have been with punishments if they have had other M/s relationships before.

Now I do agree completely with “make the punishment should fit the crime” but I believe it should also, in some circumstances at least, fit the reason for the disobediance as well. Different reasons for disobeying or not completing a task would call for different type or level of punishment. For example, suppose that a slave refuses to perform a task. If the reason for refusing it is because the slave is nervous or a little scared I think the consequence should be lesser than a flat out refusal out of defiance or simply because they don’t like/want to do it. So I think it’s important to take in consideration what happened & why it happened before setting a suitable punishment.

Now on the thing that’s bugging me. It’s the idea of pushing “soft” limits for a punishment. Again, not necessarily a good idea. It really depends on each slaves, what was done wrong. And mostly how a slave feels about limits. Personally, I don’t like… no, take that back, I hate the term “soft” limit. To me, there’s no such thing. My limits are limits & they have the “No Trespassing” tag on them. The way I see it I have likes, dislikes, limits & fears. Fears are what could be seen as soft limits & using them in the context of a punishment would probably have a negative effect. Of course, this is variable from one person to another. Personally I prefer the use of “positive” punishments rather than negative ones or “scare tactics”. And I don’t mean by “positive” punishment something I would like but something that I will learn something from or that will enable me to make up for my error & improve myself. Of course, using a fear would most probably work in order for me not to repeat the offense but only for a while & draw only negative feelings with nothing else. And sometimes a simple positive punishment or even consequence is just as effective as a harsh punishment. As long as the slave can ultimately learn and/or improve it’s likely to have good longer-term effects.

And, yes, as tempered sugar mentioned, it’s always a good thing to discuss after the punishment. Talking about such things as how both the Master & slave feel about the punishment that took place, what could be done to avoid that the same situation that happened & ensued the punishment to re-happen, etc. It kinda officially “close” the punishment & allow things to get back to “normal”.

So there… those were my 2 cents… And again, all of this are just my personal views on it & don’t or shouldn’t necessarily apply to all people or circumstances.

[Fiendish]

Originally Posted by naughty_chloe

Ever since this thread was posted I had thoughts about replying but didn’t because I realize by reading posts here & also from some of the chats I’ve had with different members that I have very different outllok than most when it comes to this subject. Yet after re-reading it this morning & thinking about it I notice that there seem to be a few elements I could add & also one little detail that… well that bugs me (which I’ll point a bit further in this post).

One thing that need to be said I think is that slaves don’t have the same feelings about punishments. Some seem to like them & even be turned on by the idea of being punished while some others hate them… and some others really detest them to a point that they can even be scared of them. I am one of those. In fact, it’s not really the punishments that I fear but the feeling I have when I know I have failed at something & knowing I have disappointed my Master. That is most of the time already pretty bad for me in itself. Not that I won’t accept a punishment or will try to dodge it if I know I have deserve it. But yeah those negative feelings can sometimes stay with me for a while afterwards. So my point is that it is important for a Master to know how the slave feel about them & also what their past experiences have been with punishments if they have had other M/s relationships before.

Now I do agree completely with “make the punishment should fit the crime” but I believe it should also, in some circumstances at least, fit the reason for the disobediance as well. Different reasons for disobeying or not completing a task would call for different type or level of punishment. For example, suppose that a slave refuses to perform a task. If the reason for refusing it is because the slave is nervous or a little scared I think the consequence should be lesser than a flat out refusal out of defiance or simply because they don’t like/want to do it. So I think it’s important to take in consideration what happened & why it happened before setting a suitable punishment.

Now on the thing that’s bugging me. It’s the idea of pushing “soft” limits for a punishment. Again, not necessarily a good idea. It really depends on each slaves, what was done wrong. And mostly how a slave feels about limits. Personally, I don’t like… no, take that back, I hate the term “soft” limit. To me, there’s no such thing. My limits are limits & they have the “No Trespassing” tag on them. The way I see it I have likes, dislikes, limits & fears. Fears are what could be seen as soft limits & using them in the context of a punishment would probably have a negative effect. Of course, this is variable from one person to another. Personally I prefer the use of “positive” punishments rather than negative ones or “scare tactics”. And I don’t mean by “positive” punishment something I would like but something that I will learn something from or that will enable me to make up for my error & improve myself. Of course, using a fear would most probably work in order for me not to repeat the offense but only for a while & draw only negative feelings with nothing else. And sometimes a simple positive punishment or even consequence is just as effective as a harsh punishment. As long as the slave can ultimately learn and/or improve it’s likely to have good longer-term effects.

And, yes, as tempered sugar mentioned, it’s always a good thing to discuss after the punishment. Talking about such things as how both the Master & slave feel about the punishment that took place, what could be done to avoid that the same situation that happened & ensued the punishment to re-happen, etc. It kinda officially “close” the punishment & allow things to get back to “normal”.

So there… those were my 2 cents… And again, all of this are just my personal views on it & don’t or shouldn’t necessarily apply to all people or circumstances.

As I said, what I wrote is not an end-all, be-all guide, so more views on the subject are good.

I wrote on my views, you wrote on your views, and so on... this will be a very useful topic for beginners, methinks!

[TensionRoom101]

Punishment and discipline are 2 distinctly different things for me, although by association there is an overlap.

It is rare for me to have to punish a submissive in my care. In my experience, if submissives fail to complete tasks set for them, the most common cause is that the dominant had too high expectations of them, which makes it a failing on the part of the Dom, not the sub. Providing he or she has tried their best then they have been successful not a failure, an are rewarded for such.

There are a number of times when I have had to punish indiscipline though, and the most obvious in recent times involved removal of the collar. As a Dom I have no mental or emotional need to have a sub collared, but it is clearly the uniform of choice of most subs so it's one of the concessions I grant them.

So, when she told me something was 'none of my business' I concurred, and removed her collar, putting it up for sale on ebay in a 7 day auction. If she reconsidered her position and wanted her place at my side back, she had to win it back. If someone beat her to it, well, she clearly didn't want it enough.

That was a rather extreme case though, and not one I expect to ever repeat.

Mike

[Bandit|Queen]

Originally Posted by TensionRoom101

So, when she told me something was 'none of my business' I concurred, and removed her collar, putting it up for sale on ebay in a 7 day auction. If she reconsidered her position and wanted her place at my side back, she had to win it back. If someone beat her to it, well, she clearly didn't want it enough.

That was a rather extreme case though, and not one I expect to ever repeat.

That is incredibly harsh. I don't know what she did obviously but I have to say if a Dom did that to me I would assume that my submission wasn't worth much to him if he could auction off something that meant so much to me so easily and I'd dig my heals in and not bid for it. Maybe that says I'm not a good sub i don't know, even if Master did that it would creat a lot of friction and resentment from me towards him. I don't think many relationships can function with resentment especially a Dom/sub one.

I understand that you were testing her but I would have thought taking the collar away and telling her she had to work to get it back would have tested her in a similar way.If she didn't bother to work for it would that not have had the same conclusion as her not bidding for the collar?

This is just my opinion but selling a collar off to someone else like that just seems incredibly harsh to me even though you said it was an extreme case.

[TensionRoom101]

Indeed. And I would have respected her decision not to bid for it too, had she made that choice.

I'm not prepared to divulge it here, but as I say the circumstances of her massive betrayal of trust were extreme to say the least, and she was given every opportunity to address it before that action. We were a couple in every sense of the word (it wasn't merely a case of her being a naughty little subby playmate) and in a couple things certainly are the other partners business.

I wasn't testing her obedience or submission. I was testing primarily her commitment to reaffirm our future and rebuild, but from a (very) secondary D/s standpoint, the validity of the collar and what, in her eyes, it actually represented.

[Bandit|Queen]

Ok I appreciate that I obviously don't know the in's and out's and correct me if I'm wrong but was it your way of ending things more than a punishment? Giving her the choice of it ending or not? I do agree that betrayal of trust should be punished or steps taken to prevent it again but I stand by my view that auctioning a collar off just as a normal punishment is very harsh.

I also understand that collars aren't very important to you as a Dom but I feel give security and show a Doms commitment to the sub as they have given them their "mark". However I can see what you mean by not needing something like that to show ownership and submission etc it can be done in other ways, but I like mine and as I said feel secure when I put it on at night.

Humm maybe someone should start a thread on what collars mean to people?

[Sum]

My little one and myself were discussing collars this evening. Trying to decide upon a design that we would both be happy with (that she'd be happy to wear and I'd be happy to give). I think we've now reached a design.

However the idea of the use of a special collar as a punishment came to me during it. Basically you pick, or design, a collar that is totally horrible, that your sub will not want to wear. If and when they are naughty you retract their normal collar and place them in the punishment collar. This collar should, for my sub, be in a few words, tacky, ugly and down right garish. For others it could be uncomfortable, itchy etc., but the punishment remains in the fact that you've removed the standard collar, the one you've given as a gift, as a sign of commitment and loyalty and protection wit the same thing but as a punishment, in this way you are never dropping your sense of commitment to your sub, but are placing them in a position where they know they've upset you by doing wrong.

In all honesty, with a good sub, having this collar there would be enough to enforce disipline as it would be hateful for them to have their main collar removed and a dedicated punishment collar put on.


is hoping this all makes sense 2 bottles of wine tonight

[Bandit|Queen]

Please don't buy a nasty punishment colour! I think I'd cry if i had to wear the nasty one you showed me last night. I think the threat of you buying it is kind of enough for me.