Humiliation vs. Degradation

[Butterfly]

These two terms are very common on getDare and in the BDSM world. Often times they are used together, but sometimes it is important to distinguish the difference.

What do you think the difference is between Humiliation and Degradation?

[IceMaiden]

Originally Posted by Butterfly

What do you think the difference is between Humiliation and Degradation?

It took me such a long time to understand the difference between the two, given the line between them is so thin. I now view humiliation as focusing on something you are currently doing - I.e: You look like such a slut with my cock down your throat, you're such a horny whore rubbing that pussy for me etc, and degradation as focusing on something you actually are: I.e: You're so easy, you're so fat, your dick is too small etc.

[streetsweeper]

my interpretation would be the former is doing something you're uncomfortable and causes embarrassment. Whereas the as the latter is more personal, removing dignity etc.

[lilith_]

I think the main difference between the two is that humiliation focuses more on something you're doing. So for example humiliation would be something along the lines of "you're so pathetic begging me to cum". Personally, I think it is a bit "lighter" than degradation, which, from the other hand, focuses more on what you are. So for example degradation would be something like "You're such a dumb slut". I also think (and I might be wrong) that degradation usually involves insecurities we have.

I'm still a little confused as of where the line is when it is not verbal.

[PrincessJessica]

I'm still a little confused as of where the line is when it is not verbal.

Princess Jessica would say that non-verbal humiliation is doing something that's unusual/non-conforming given your particular role in society but degradation is things that are more extreme acts that are unusual in some way that no part of society would ever want to do e.g. feminisation is humiliating but only for guys but scat play is degrading as no part of society does it normally.

Hmm Princess Jessica can already think of a few examples she'd say are more humiliating (like body-writing) that don't conform to that though. She supposes there's a bit of a personal aspect to it too; what may be mere humiliating for her might be degrading for someone else (even toilet play must become less degrading the more you do it).

[AbusiveMaster]

The mistake people make at times is looking at action rather than thought. The difference between humiliation and degradation isn't what is done to a person, but how it makes them feel. as such, two people can find the same action affects them entirely differently.

Humiliation play will make you blush, make you feel uncomfortable, awkward or embarassed.

Degradation makes you feel... less, for want of a better word. Less of a man, for SPH, less attractive for weight or appearance degradation. Less intelligent, less human... at least for the length of the session.

It is important to ensure that both parties arefully aware that degradation is for the duration of the scene. Anyone who plays on the insecurities outwith play is across the border to abuse, using the insecurities as a control mechanism, and that is not acceptable.

[Runesmith]

Humiliation is the act of embarrassing a person, either verbally or non-verbally. Verbal humiliation includes insulting the sub, or making the sub verbalize embarrassing phrases, begging, etc. Non-verbal may include changes in appearance (smeared lipstick or mascara, slutty clothes), body writing, body inspection etc. The intent of humiliation is to humble the sub and make her accept her lower status compared to the Dom and others, also helping in establishing a "pecking order" among multiple subs. Humiliation is triggered by the Dom, and the effect is practically instantaneous. The effects of humiliation are temporary, but humiliation can usually be carried on for a long time without any "ill effects."

Degradation is deeper, darker and often evil. As the word "degrade" implies, it's a process of wearing away the layers that make a sub a person. This is not something that can be done instantaneously. Degradation involves understanding the sub deeply, defining the layers that you intend to break, and embarking on a long, arduous path to achieve it.

Degradation is mostly used for evil. Abusive partners degrade the other (without even understanding what degradation means, I bet) to break down their sense of self-worth, to turn them in to Stockholm-syndrome hostages.

Degradation can be used for good, to "fix" someone who is "broken." Think of it this way - if you have a malfunctioning machine, you need to take it apart in order to fix it. In many cases, you see subs who are severely conflicted due to the way they were raised (often coming from conservative societies and families). In conservative societies and families, one is brought up to shun topics such as non-phenotypical gender identity, and sexual practices considered "deviant" by whichever brand of religion/delusion they were brought up in. Such conflict can cause immense mental distress, leading to depression, drugs etc.

With degradation, you can reduce a person to their basic building blocks, and either build them up the way you want to, or the way they want to build themselves up. The latter method has lesser chance of being used for evil.

In a sense, this is what psychotherapists attempt to do, albeit in a much milder and benign form. If you use degradation for good, in the proper way, you can help a person shed their baggage and become who they want to be.

There are many stages/intensities of degradation, and techniques one can employ. However, degradation is not a "play", unlike humiliation. Degradation can result in permanent damage if not done properly. It's not for amateurs. And one other thing - don't expect any gratitude. It will take the sub years to understand what you did (if ever), after you let them build themselves back up. Degradation requires concentration and time commitment from the Dom, and can be quite exhausting when dealing with a stubborn sub who is "deeply programmed" by a strict religious crap such as Islam or Christian fundamentalism.

If you are interested in learning more, you can ask your questions here.

[Stopclick]

@Runesmith

I don't necessarily agree with your definition of degradation. As i understand it, it too is on a scale with humiliation. If we were to take embarrassment as the low level of the scale, say 0-3, humiliation as 4-7, degradation would be 8-10. I highly recommend "Enough to make you blush" written by Princess Kali. She's also the creator of kinkacademy.com and has some excellent insights into humiliation play.

I understand that you want to communicate that degradation can be abuse, and that's definitely something valuable to bear in mind. But properly negotiated with consensual play in mind, I don't think that it is necessarily harmful.

[AbusiveMaster]

Originally Posted by Stopclick

@Runesmith

I don't necessarily agree with your definition of degradation. As i understand it, it too is on a scale with humiliation. If we were to take embarrassment as the low level of the scale, say 0-3, humiliation as 4-7, degradation would be 8-10. I highly recommend "Enough to make you blush" written by Princess Kali. She's also the creator of kinkacademy.com and has some excellent insights into humiliation play.

I understand that you want to communicate that degradation can be abuse, and that's definitely something valuable to bear in mind. But properly negotiated with consensual play in mind, I don't think that it is necessarily harmful.

I agree entirely. While degradation indeed can be used for abusive purposes, and often is, degradation within D/s is something entirely different.

Whips, chains, pain, torture, etc etc can all have a negative role in society.
The point of BDSM is doing these potentially dangerous activities in a safe and controlled environment.

When I engage in degradation play, it is degrading, not just humiliating. It does result in genuine feelings of being made to be less, to be demeaned. And it is understood beforehand that it is for the duration of the scene only. It has been discussed beforehand, and there is as much aftercare as is necessary to ensure that Icy knows that she is not all the nasty things I have just called her, to make sure she knows hhow much I love and value her. But for the duration of the scene, the intensity of the genuine feelings... well to be fair, I will leave that to someone else to put into words, as I can't adequately describe it from the perspective of the submissive.

[LitDarkness]

Humiliation is where you are made to say things you know aren't true or called things you know aren't true.

Degradation is where you are made to feel that you are this or that and know it throughout the session. Anything further than the session crosses the line here.

the intensity of the genuine feelings... well to be fair, I will leave that to someone else to put into words, as I can't adequately describe it from the perspective of the submissive.

The intensity of the feelings for me can be very intense. I would very much like, maybe need aftercare after this and it could take a while.

With degradation, you are in a sense breaking confidence and if that goes to far, it is not a good thing. What you said about making sure she knows she isn't those things is something that I would advise all Doms participating in this area to do.

As for "fixing" someone with degradation, yeah, I wouldn't recommend that. Or at least they make sure they know you are aiming for that beforehand and also know what you are doing.

[Runesmith]

Originally Posted by AbusiveMaster

I agree entirely. While degradation indeed can be used for abusive purposes, and often is, degradation within D/s is something entirely different.

Whips, chains, pain, torture, etc etc can all have a negative role in society.
The point of BDSM is doing these potentially dangerous activities in a safe and controlled environment.

When I engage in degradation play, it is degrading, not just humiliating. It does result in genuine feelings of being made to be less, to be demeaned. And it is understood beforehand that it is for the duration of the scene only. It has been discussed beforehand, and there is as much aftercare as is necessary to ensure that Icy knows that she is not all the nasty things I have just called her, to make sure she knows hhow much I love and value her. But for the duration of the scene, the intensity of the genuine feelings... well to be fair, I will leave that to someone else to put into words, as I can't adequately describe it from the perspective of the submissive.

If you want to define degradation as just a higher degree of humiliation, yes, I agree. Some of the "feel good" internet BDSM gurus, no doubt, use that definition.

I use the psychological definition of degradation. The intent of humiliation is to lower barriers. Degradation, in that definition, deconstructs the personality. Unlike humiliation, the effects are either long-term or permanent. Unlike humiliation, degradation is not an instant thing - it takes a long time to act. So, it can't be part of a play.

With humiliation, you provide after care, because it is not permanent. With degradation, there is a type or after care, when you reconstruct a person (if you choose to do so). But it doesn't come at the end of a "play session" because, degradation is not limited to play.

Degradation IS abuse. But there are those who welcome it, because they can't stand to be who they are, and their mental conflicts can only be solved by becoming nobody.

[Kitten]

As I understand it... humiliation is when you're embarrassed because you feel like you're "too good" for it. Example, acting slutty while you consider yourself a respectable girl. Degradation is when you're embarrassed because you feel like you are lesser, or not as good as you thought you were. For example, acting slutty because you feel like you're a slut. It's correlated, but not the same. (and yes, word choice is not ideal here but you either catch the drift, or not lol).

However, I find it too easy (and also, baseless) to say that degradation is per definition abuse and the only people enjoying it are people who have so many mental problems that they can only cope by being nothing - that's coming very close to saying all with a degradation kink are either suicidal, or abusers taking advantage of them. I don't think that's true, personally.

Not everyone wants to always be the winner, not everyone wants to always be on top. Some people enjoy degradation because it gives the freedom to accept yourself as a less than perfect person, and you do not have to struggle and get upset over inconsequential things such as "Is it really OK for me to like cock so much?" and what not.

[Runesmith]

Originally Posted by Kitten

.
Not everyone wants to always be the winner, not everyone wants to always be on top. Some people enjoy degradation because it gives the freedom to accept yourself as a less than perfect person, and you do not have to struggle and get upset over inconsequential things such as "Is it really OK for me to like cock so much?" and what not.

Exactly. Is that really different from what I wrote?

[nina@]

I want to give my personal views based on my understanding and perception

Humiliation to me means an embarrassing situation or thing like a breach of personal boundaries or space for example doing things like changing, peeing in front of someone etc basically something humbling that is not conventionally "normal". The degree or intensity depends on what a person considers normal for them and is subjective. Humiliation does not necessarily make someone feel bad about themselves.

Degradation is more of a mental state of debasement of pride. For example I may pride myself of being a 'good' girl and hypothetically speaking say, while walking down a street I have a wardrobe malfunction then that can be humiliating, but the moment I relate it to the thought that I am 'liking' being viewed sluttily by strangers which is in dissonance with my preconceived notion of being conventionally 'good', this realisation for me is degradation. It is generally associated with stripping of one's pride or dignity.

I do not believe that degradation necessarily has to be permanent or long term complete disintegration and building up like Runes says. It can happen in all intensities and be for shorter spells of time too like just for a task.

I feel both humiliation and degradation are different feelings and one is not an intense version of another. Definition wise the borders blur between the two words as they are closely related feelings and highly subjective based on circumstantial, demographic and socio-cultural factors, however for a particular individual they can generally be defined as two distinguishable feelings based on their individual circumstances, likes, perceptions and comfort zones.

In a nutshell, humiliation is humility or embarrassment felt due to invasion of personal space or feelings, and degradation is an act that challenges your sense of self-pride (like targeting insecurities) or your value/belief system.

[Diapered Devil]

I think most people have hit the nail on the head here. I'll just add my two cents (for my own reference in the future tbh).

Both humiliation ad degradation are relative terms.

Humiliation is more transient and based on a persons tolerance for embarrassing acts (i.e. pride/dignity). If a person has a large amount of self pride it is very easy to humiliate them. If a person has no dignity then they cannot be easily humiliated.

Degradation is more closely linked with an individuals perception of themselves and others (i.e. identity/judgement). If a person identifies as literal human garbage it is very difficult for them to ever feel degraded of for others to degrade them. If a person identifies as literal royalty it is very easy to degrade them.

Similarly outsides can view what a person does as humiliating/degrading based on their own perspective.

The confusion comes because we typically make associations between identity and pride/dignity. We assume literal human trash has no dignity and we assume a royal is filled with pride. This is not necessarily, always true. A person can have little dignity and yet still be judgmental whist regarding themselves highly. Similarly a person can see themselves in a poor light, but be filled with pride.

We also get confused because degrading actions are often humiliating and vice versa, but not always.

There's a really basic free "naughty" game you can access called trap quest (google it) which explores this in an interesting way.