Gender Identification (discussion)

[RiskyFlame]

I'm curious what you think about the sensitive topic: gender identification.

Originally Posted by definition by Google

gender
the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones).
"traditional concepts of gender"
• the members of one or other sex.
• "differences between the genders are encouraged from an early age"

__________________________________________________
sex
either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and most other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions.
"adults of both sexes"

Origin
sexe (old French)
sexus (Latin)
=> sex (late Middle English)

To my recollection, there have been some fights (on getDare) about gender identification. A simple example would be the question of what to call yourself when you identify yourself as a female in a male body. The foremost term would be M to F when speaking about one's gender. However, as I define the word sex (and according to Google's dictionary), there are only two sexes; male and female. The question: what sex am I when I identify my gender as M to F, F to M, transgender, genderfluid, genderqueer, pangender, or others?

My view on this subject is that there can be countless genders, but only two sexes; male and female. I define a person's sex based on what's between their legs. If it's a penis: male. If it's a vagina: female. If you have none or both (rare): your choice. The perfect (same as above) example is about someone M to F. Only after the sex change operation, the person can say that she's a female now. Before the sex change operation, he's still a male even though he identifies himself as the gender M to F.

Therefore, based on what I said above, I think that you should choose your sex based on what's between your legs when you fill out a form on getDare. For instance, when you make an s/M ad on getDare, you are required to opt for your sex. Well, now you know which sex you should opt. If you are not happy about this, you could always write down your gender in the ad with CAPS LOCK on and the maximum size of characters.

Redundant: (since after iSpuds posted)

Spoiler:

[B]Disclaimer[/B]
This thread is not about the examples but rather the gender identification. So if you think that certain forms on getDare must present more options for one's gender, then go to another thread on this subject.

[centurion01]

Well said, I agree.
Title should be male, female, mtf/ftm(pre/post op)
so it is clear what a person is, without a shock later on.

[iSpuds]

Edit: Misunderstood the disclaimer - my view on gender identity as a whole concept is much, much shorter.

Sex - Reproductive function; Less relevant given humans' slow progression from a nuclear family structure to more modern structures that do not necessarily prioritize procreation (e.g. homosexual family structures, child-less family structures).

Gender - Roles, values, and social identities loosely based on reproductive function (for better or for worse), as defined by society.

Gender identity - The relationship between one's reproductive function and one's roles, values, and social identity, as defined by the individual. This may align with, contradict, or reject both sex and/or gender (as defined by society).

That's the quick and dirty of my viewpoint. i.e. If someone tells me their gender identity is X, then I want to be sensitive to both how they view themselves and how it aligns with or contradicts how others view them, and the conflicts and struggles that may arise from that.

Original Post (irrelevant, but in case anyone is interested...):

Spoiler:

I understand your view on the subject, and feel it's justifiable, if arguable, and of course at the end of the day it's the people who run gD who will decide how their forms work. I feel that's all well and good.

However, consider that whatever our biological or genetic dispositions are, it doesn't necessarily translate to the qualities and identities that make up who we are as people, or who we wish to portray to potential partners. I feel that gender identity is a very important aspect to those of us who are out to look for potential long-term partners. I, for one, would like my partner to know if I do or do not identify as my birth-assigned sex.

This is actually a pretty complex topic, which is why I don't have much of an opinion on how the ad section of gD is constructed, but for discussion's sake, perhaps consider these points (?):

If the onus lies on the individual to include that information in the text portion of their ad, consider that a wider range of gender identities in the title may help to deter those who harass "female"-titled ads without ever reading further, or help prevent confusion and butthurt aimed towards a person whose sex is "female," but identity is butch or otherwise masculine. It's too easy to write someone like that off as fake and we all know how common it is that assholes on this site feel entitled to voice their negative opinions on the matter. This point also affects pre-op trans folks who are pretty far along on HRT.

Also, enforcing a sex binary does not keep in mind those who are dysphoric regarding their birth sex. Again, because I fail to see how the sex we are assigned as infants has much to do with our sexual preferences as adults, I also fail to see why it's important enough to deny certain people comfort with their identity in the interest of the comfort of those who are concerned with people misrepresenting their sex...

...which brings me to my third point. Judging by the ban list (though correct me if I'm wrong), it doesn't seem that the current system does a whole lot to deter folks with the intention of misrepresenting their sex from doing so. It seems to simply allow mods to ban people who make multiple accounts for the express purpose of switching up gender. Perhaps, then, allowing options for Gender Fluidity or CD/TV (a la FetLife) might reduce the need to create a new account for each gender identity? I suppose it depends upon the motivations for those who are doing it. If their motivations are those of a predatory nature, chances are they will abuse the system regardless. In those cases, it has been my understanding that the mods' ability to ban based on the occurrence of multiple accounts per IP should help with that?

As for folks being butthurt that a person's sex doesn't match their own gender definitions when replying to an ad, well, at the end of the day the onus is on each of us to get over it and keep looking. But maybe a better system for gender expression via the ad system could help better match up people with the types of folks they're looking for.

Anywho, that's just a small portion of how I see gender identity within the context of this site, I suppose. Obviously it's a lot less simple than just that. I'd love to see discussion pick up here, though.

[RiskyFlame]

iSpuds, thank you for your comprehensive post. I know that it's a pretty complex topic, but after reading your post, I think that I may have underestimated the topic a little. Regardless of this, I'd like to respond to your three points. But before starting with that, I want to say that this thread turned towards the s/M ad form mechanics sooner than I thought.

Note that English is my second language, so I hope this didn't impair my understanding of what you wrote.

First about the gender related to the title of an ad on getDare. I can understand that some people think that the sex-question on the form that one has to fill out has too few options. I haven't been on getDare from the very beginning, so I reckon that the breans have their reasons to limit the option to the few that are available now. But I have seen some ads that get attacked because a MtF person opted for being a female according to the title. In some cases, the poster does not specify that he/she is MtF, although, his/her profile page says MtF. Many people find this misleading, which is why they might attack the ad, I assume. Fortunately, in most cases, it's written in the ad that the person is MtF. But it often happens that the MtF-word is somewhere written between dozens of lines, so it's hard to see right away when opening the ad. So I think that when MtF, FtM or any other specific genders write their gender at the top of the ad or bold it, the bad apples won't be irritated sooner than normal.

Second, I agree with you. Though, I see the sex and gender as two different things. To help me explaining the difference, I added the definitions according to Google in the OP. But there're no points I disagree upon in your second part. After all, why should a person care about what a stranger thinks of him/her being identified as a certain gender?

Third, here my reading skills somehow fail me a little. If I understand you correctly, you're saying that adding gender options will reduce the multiple gendered accounts of people unless the person is of predatory nature. And that deter folks with the intention of misrepresenting their sex doesn't seem to be penalty worthy. To answer this: misrepresenting one's sex isn't penalty worthy. One of the reasons is that there's no way for anyone to check if someone is the sex he/she claims to be without having the person to willingly verify him-/herself. This applies to second and third account as well, as there is the chance that a friend or family member joins getDare as well.

I'm not sure if I covered everything, but hope I did. I also saw that you edited your post, so I will read your edited texts now and may reply to it, or maybe not.

And thank you, centurion01, as well.

[Jaro]

I totally agree with you on the difference between sex and gender. I'm totally fine with males identifying as females, but if they still have a penis their sex is still male.

Personally, I think it would be nice if the user profiles here had 2 fields to fill in: sex and gender. Gender is important on how to communicate with someone and how to address someone. Sex is important to know what you have to work with when giving out certain dares.

[dzbll]

Originally Posted by Jaroface

I totally agree with you on the difference between sex and gender. I'm totally fine with males identifying as females, but if they still have a penis their sex is still male.

Personally, I think it would be nice if the user profiles here had 2 fields to fill in: sex and gender. Gender is important on how to communicate with someone and how to address someone. Sex is important to know what you have to work with when giving out certain dares.

Imo that would be a good use of the signature section of your profile.

Example. Saying: I am (sex) but currently feel (gender).

If people don't read the signature then they likely won't read the profile either

[RiskyFlame]

Originally Posted by dzbll

Imo that would be a good use of the signature section of your profile.

Example. Saying: I am (sex) but currently feel (gender).

If people don't read the signature then they likely won't read the profile either

Right, I think it would be better to have it in the signature rather than on the profile page. Though, people are already able to do this, yet, some people get angry if they still don't specify it in their OP (when it's lengthy).

I mean, I haven't followed those fights very well because they happened on so many different locations, but I can give you one person who did fight a lot about sex and gender declaration: bleonav06. She's gone now, so that's a way to fix it. But still, maybe shining some light on this discussion would do good. Solutions might be created so far a solution is needed...

[iSpuds]

Hi, RiskyFlame! I agree with you on pretty much all accounts, but after reading your OP more carefully, I certainly don't want to derail the thread into chatter about forum mechanics!

Actually, another topic I'd like to offer for discussion is that of pronouns. It seems to me that a range of gender identities is something that most people (barring, perhaps, the especially militant) can wrap their heads around with enough patience and conversation. However, venturing outside the set of pronouns which represent and reinforce the gender binary seems to remain a grammar taboo. My seventy-some year-old English professor, for example, kind and open-minded though she may be, will always assert that there is no singular "they," and that "he/she" is the only appropriate insertion when a person's gender is unknown. Is this the result of years of grade school English teachers (at least in America) beating us upside the head with textbooks which don't recognize the use of "they" as a singular pronoun? I have no idea.