Is telling your sub or little they have disappointed you a cruel punishment?

[Dom Male]

I had a discussion recently, with a submissive, about how cruel her Dom was. Naturally, being concerned about her mental well being, I asked for examples of this cruelty. This didn't mean I didn't believe her, but I wanted to know what she deemed as cruel. For example telling 2 subs you are going to beat their ass black and blue could terrify one, while making another wet.

So she explained that when she failed in an instruction or task her Dom made a big deal to tell her how disapointed he was in her.

I followed this up with "Did you do your very best, and still failed", and was surprised to hear yes in the beginning, but now I've stopped trying.

This got me thinking, if a rule or instruction is neglected, should the sub be made aware of your displeasure or do you say nothing at risk of hurting feelings? For me the answer lies in what effort was made. We can all improve in our roles, and should never be disappointed with Best Efforts. However should you believe that full effort wasn't made then you need to be able to express that.

Looking forward to other views.

Domnick

[SlaveBoy31]

Hmm I think it is a find line with that. As a sub I try to please my Master all the time. He has told me that he was disappointed with me when I didn’t do things that he ordered me to do. To answer the question I think it depends on how the dom utilizes telling the sub. In this case yes it was cruel because he was Extream by the sounds of it and didn’t give her any feed back on how she could do better. More importantly there was no praise even when she did things right. So yes it isn’t good when all a sub gets is negative feed back. It’s in our nature us subs feel good when others feel good so if we can’t make our masters happy then we aren’t happy and then it can start to eat away at us and unmotivated us because it starts to become what’s the point if I can’t do it right why try. So I think it needs to be a balance between good and bad. I had a Master that when I did stuff wrong he would punish me but then when I did things write all I would get was an ok. There was never that warm fuzzy feeling that I could get because it felt like he didn’t care when I did things well, he only cares when I screwed up. So all and all. No it’s not cruel to tell a sub they disapointed you so long as it’s balanced with positive stuff as well

[Butterfly]

For me the only punishment truly needed is to know that I have disappointed my Dom. However, there is also a difference between a punishment and a consequence. A punishment is given when something was deliberately not followed. A rule or a task that was not completed for no reason other than they didn't want to do it. A consequence on the other hand can be used when something was done incorrectly or truly forgotten, or maybe outside of the subs control (ie. being tardy for a session, or forgetting to send a message as soon as they arrived at home).

I think it is cruel to tell your sub that they have disappointed you if that isn't true. I think you also need to be careful when telling your sub you are disappointed if they have tried their best. Sure, maybe things didn't go the way you planned or hoped for, but as long as they tried their best and gave it their full effort, that is what should matter. Sometimes things happen.

So to answer the question, I don't think it is cruel as long as it isn't done to hurt them, but rather a true reflection of your feelings. After all, communication and sharing of feelings is the most important part of any relationship.

[iSpuds]

If there is one thing I've learned it's that you cannot manage your sub's feelings. Lying by omission is still lying. Neglecting to tell your sub when they have disappointed you does your sub no favors. And, if your sub endeavors to make you feel guilty for being honest about how you feel, then that is a problem.

These relationships are exchanges. In exchange for one's dominance and the emotional and physical labor to erecting structure within a relationship, a sub is expected to follow rules, carry out demands, and be serviceable to their Dom. Sometimes we fuck up, Dom or sub. We will apologize. But an apology doesnt always fix things. Best efforts dont always fix things. Expressing disappointment, founded by a desire to sus out what went wrong and to restructure things to help your sub succeed in the future, is not cruel. It's communication.

[IceMaiden]

Is it cruel? It depends on the context. If my Dom were to give me a task or order and I followed it to the best of my abilities and the result wasn't what he wanted and so he told me he was disappointed in me, then yes, that would be cruel. I am only human and can only give my best effort. If he told me he was disappointed in the result that would be completely different. Sometimes things don't work out as we plan and that's totally okay. It's not okay to minimise my effort and obedience.

Now if I were to deliberately not follow a rule or not give my best effort to an order and he then told me he was disappointed in me, no that's not cruel. Why wouldn't he be if I wasn't trying? And if he didn't tell me how he felt how can I make sure it doesn't happen again? I would be unaware of how he felt and we wouldn't be communicating and if that keeps happening for fear of hurting my feelings we're both going to get hurt somewhere down the road.

[Heart]

Cruel punishment is subjective and depends entirely on the individuals in the relationship and the dynamic.

The word disappointment has a heavy meaning on many s types I've come in contact with. Many of them say that word gives them the worst feeling in the world.

I would gather many on this site would evaluate using the word without just cause would be a cruel punishment. I personally believe there is no universal answer. Therefore I don't think we can categorize anything as a definite cruel punishment. Something someone views as world ending can be a turn on to someone else.

[TagHeuer]

The underlying issue for me would be whether or not your submissive did her absolute best. We can't all be unrelenting robots all the time. If it's half assed or the task is not done because of laziness behavior then punishment is needed. This should be done within the consensual framework you have laid out with your submissive.

[Dom Male]

Thanks to everyone who replied.

The subjectiveness is a key factor.

For me, I feel if a D type is disapointed in their S types actions, either through actions or tasks, they should tell them. However they must first understand their perceived limitations. If you knew they can do 10 push ups, and you demand fifty, but they only complete 25, well then an expression of disappointment is wrongly placed. They should be disappointed in your lack of knowing them.

[Devi Dasa]

Most of you before me spoke about the difference in whether or not disappointment is justified (the sub put actually effort in but eventually felt vs. The sub did it half-heartedly).
Which I agree with. Disappointment is a deep and strong emotion. True disappointed can only be when we have expectations. Now as said above when we expect a different result, than a doms future demands will be adjusted to the subs capabilities. However disappointment in the sub itself is a very different thing.
See, in order to expect we must be experienced in the thing we are handling, we must have knowledge about the possible and common outcomes. To be disappointed in a person therefore means to have investment in the relationship to that person, the Dom must know the sub, it's behaviour and most importantly personality. Then "I'm disappointed with you" says basically "I expect you to be a different person, unfortunate you are this way"

We must be very careful with our words. Not only but especially in the (temporarily) higher position of Dom. Many subby people I spoke to (not all) come from a insecure and anxious place and their Dom (among other things) gives them a certain stability. To set out rules and consequences when agreed upon aspects (like laziness) are in the way of a task, is alright. It might even be beneficial as it gives guidelines to work under and keep the anxiety of uncertainty away. One might enjoy to fit into a role and engage in service to their Dom for innumerable reasons. When a Dom now shatters this construct by stating his disappointment in the subs person, it can destroy the safe place many see in their D/S life.

In my opinion all of us regardless our position or status or whatever always and constantly have to work on our selfs. A Dom can be a very dear person as many very personal thoughts are shared with them. Advice outside of pure playtime is great from any person who knows us well. When included in the superior position as dom one must be careful.
A Dom is in a role and should act in such role. That is expected by the sub. It is not expected for the dom to criticize our life choices or character. That is what a friend would do. For sure one can at the same time be in the role of a dom and the role of a friend. It is very much possible to punish as a sub for misbehaviour and talk about character flaws as a friend based on the same incident. Not to mix up the role and their duties. It must be clear for the sub who is speaking, it depends on how deep the individual role go. Good friends might decide to play together. The now Dom shouldn't carry over delicate secret of their sub from his friendship role for plain humiliation. Or kink partners might grow a friendship. The Dom shouldn't act as if superior to a friend end expect the friendship to be for their pleasure only.

In reality these things mix up. We must develop our social skills to be good doms. To be friends also. To keep them separate but also one. As in carrying over the affection but not become abusive by threatening a sub with deeply rooted emotions like disappointment.

It is difficult and takes time, effort and loads of empathy. And knowledge of what a sub needs. By being a Dom we take the responsibility to not put our sub in danger, both physically and mentally. A sub can (and should) be aware and protected themselves too. Physically that's relatively easy, don't do stupid thing. Mental damage is done as soon as the words are said (or read) and can only be counteracted by the sub, not prohibited.
Be aware that as a Dom, a sub gives you the keys to some of their most personal parts. That is an honour. That is trust. Treat them like that.
D/S relationship revolves around the Dom playing with the subs neediness (most often for sexual pleasure). Tease and denial is fine. Punishments are fine. Pushing barriers is fine. Attacks on a personal level is way beyond a respectful Dom and outright wrong m, abusive a d cruel.
Cruel not in a sense of hardcore but simply being a bad person.

That is my opinion at least. Proof me wrong if you like!

[Dom Male]

Originally Posted by Devi Dasa

Most of you before me spoke about the difference in whether or not disappointment is justified (the sub put actually effort in but eventually felt vs. The sub did it half-heartedly).
Which I agree with. Disappointment is a deep and strong emotion. True disappointed can only be when we have expectations. Now as said above when we expect a different result, than a doms future demands will be adjusted to the subs capabilities. However disappointment in the sub itself is a very different thing.
See, in order to expect we must be experienced in the thing we are handling, we must have knowledge about the possible and common outcomes. To be disappointed in a person therefore means to have investment in the relationship to that person, the Dom must know the sub, it's behaviour and most importantly personality. Then "I'm disappointed with you" says basically "I expect you to be a different person, unfortunate you are this way"

We must be very careful with our words. Not only but especially in the (temporarily) higher position of Dom. Many subby people I spoke to (not all) come from a insecure and anxious place and their Dom (among other things) gives them a certain stability. To set out rules and consequences when agreed upon aspects (like laziness) are in the way of a task, is alright. It might even be beneficial as it gives guidelines to work under and keep the anxiety of uncertainty away. One might enjoy to fit into a role and engage in service to their Dom for innumerable reasons. When a Dom now shatters this construct by stating his disappointment in the subs person, it can destroy the safe place many see in their D/S life.

In my opinion all of us regardless our position or status or whatever always and constantly have to work on our selfs. A Dom can be a very dear person as many very personal thoughts are shared with them. Advice outside of pure playtime is great from any person who knows us well. When included in the superior position as dom one must be careful.
A Dom is in a role and should act in such role. That is expected by the sub. It is not expected for the dom to criticize our life choices or character. That is what a friend would do. For sure one can at the same time be in the role of a dom and the role of a friend. It is very much possible to punish as a sub for misbehaviour and talk about character flaws as a friend based on the same incident. Not to mix up the role and their duties. It must be clear for the sub who is speaking, it depends on how deep the individual role go. Good friends might decide to play together. The now Dom shouldn't carry over delicate secret of their sub from his friendship role for plain humiliation. Or kink partners might grow a friendship. The Dom shouldn't act as if superior to a friend end expect the friendship to be for their pleasure only.

In reality these things mix up. We must develop our social skills to be good doms. To be friends also. To keep them separate but also one. As in carrying over the affection but not become abusive by threatening a sub with deeply rooted emotions like disappointment.

It is difficult and takes time, effort and loads of empathy. And knowledge of what a sub needs. By being a Dom we take the responsibility to not put our sub in danger, both physically and mentally. A sub can (and should) be aware and protected themselves too. Physically that's relatively easy, don't do stupid thing. Mental damage is done as soon as the words are said (or read) and can only be counteracted by the sub, not prohibited.
Be aware that as a Dom, a sub gives you the keys to some of their most personal parts. That is an honour. That is trust. Treat them like that.
D/S relationship revolves around the Dom playing with the subs neediness (most often for sexual pleasure). Tease and denial is fine. Punishments are fine. Pushing barriers is fine. Attacks on a personal level is way beyond a respectful Dom and outright wrong m, abusive a d cruel.
Cruel not in a sense of hardcore but simply being a bad person.

That is my opinion at least. Proof me wrong if you like!

Really well thought out points. Thanks for your input.

All too often the gift of submission is taken for granted.

[Devi Dasa]

Originally Posted by Dom Male

Really well thought out points. Thanks for your input.

All too often the gift of submission is taken for granted.

I can only point out that any standard social rules count for the very special D/S relationship too and vice versa. There is much to learn in being on either side. If you are lucky and in a working longterm relationship, take the time to reflect and let your partner know about your learnings and feelings.