Many types of limitations

[MasterPain]

there are many types and forms of limitations that a master must submit to when handling a slave. be it social, legal, psychological or phyical

First there is social limitations:
A master does not control the slave so that it interferes with their livelihood. if they could get in trouble just by preforming some actions then these actions should not be allowed.
any type of master slave environment must be kept hidden in a form of masquerade away from the general public. it is in front of us all the time but must be completely hidden because there are laws against certain actions and certain behaviors are beyond the norms for todays society. this applies with the SM and the TorD forms of master/slave.
i will give some examples:
a female slave going to work in her panties is acceptable.
a female slave trying to have sex with the boss is not.
why?
in where she is not allowed to wear underwear it keeps this to herself, the slave is embarrassed because it is beyond the norm of what she is used to, if she is accidentally seen then she can explain it away or get a interesting look.

If she is tasked to sleep with her boss then that adds a random element to this situation, what if the boss is not subjective to her advances? she could be jobless in a rather bad hurry then with bills ect.

the same is done in the school yard, no tasks should be preformed at school unless the slave asks for it. reputation and public image could be damaged and the slave would be subject to insults, and harassment because of these situations.

now then you change the setting you can change this limitation.
lets say instead of flashing someone at work, she is to flash some one at a bar or a party? well then this situation changes because instead of it being a professional place it is more a relaxed and fun loving place. although it isnt expected to be flashed at a party, generally the guys/girls are of the age group to look stare then to go call the cops.

so masters when picking a environment to task a slave make sure it is one where the behaviors are more favored then rejected. walking the streets late at night dressed like a whore can get a slave killed, raped or abducted. having them do so at work could get them fired. in a club it is more expected, in places where sexual material is more forefront then it is more accepted.

Legal limitations:
the law is a big limitation on people.
public nudity and public sex acts are banned by law in most places around the world, nude beaches and parks are out there but overall it is against the law. you don't want your slave in jail because she broke the law. some daring places are alright. semi secluded areas could be fun for the risk but over all keep things to private property and be observant of the laws

[MasterPain]

Physical limitations:

these are things that the body can not do on its own. these limitations should be observed by the master and understood before one even tasks a person to do things.

Painful things
there is a limit to the amount of pain one can inflict on the body without needing a trained professional to step in to save their lives. having a slave cut themselves is really risky because of bloodloss. they will be in no condition to save themselves if they lose to much blood. nailing breasts or foreskin to boards are also very risky and should not be asked from a slave.

Object Penetration
what could be inserted into a orifice should be limited to things that could relatively FIT, a vibrator is designed to fit a regulation football is not.

don't ask the slave to penetrate themselves with anything that has a sharp edge: knives, screwdrivers, power tools, ect. for any tares in the vaginal wall or anal walls will never heal properly and will scar and possibly get infected.

when using objects that are not meant to go inside a body it is a good and safe idea to wrap them in a condom or two just for added protection. a slave might like the feel and shape of a monkey wrench's curves, the rough spot where it was used as a hammer could seriously harm the delicate insides.

and not everyone is the same, some women or men can penetrate themselves with a coke bottle, or a baseball bat. most people cant. the people who can took a long time to stretch themselves safely to be able to take these objects. most people on this site hasn't.

Psychological limitations:
if your slave is shy, if your slave doesn't want to preform a action just because they feel it is gross shouldn't encourage wrath from the master.
these fall into 3 categories

reluctant limits:
these are limits put in place by society, their upbringing, or a fear of something they see in themselves.
these are the limits that trust developed with a slave could start to over come, slowly, it is like braking down a wall and rebuilding a slave into what she is to become if owned by the master. these can be goaded to be finally accepted as par for the course.

Soft limits:
these are tasks that a slave will not do under normal situations but can be forced to do as punishments. these limits are used as a control because the slave knows something they do not want will happen if they disoby

Hard limits:
these are things that a slave will not do no matter what
if a master uses a hard limits and forces one on the slave the slave most likely will leave

[animal]

interesting information. (but long ;) )

btw 100 posts

[JoMo]

I disagree, totally. You just went through in detail some diferent limits that the slave can employ, just like nothing public, or no scatology etc. They are not absolute rules which must be obeyed by everybody in all circumstances, most people would employ these as limits, but some may not. In the most extreme circumstance asking a slave to kill themselves is not necessarily an absolute nono, it depends on the level of submission. I doubt anyone in existence would fail to employ the "no death" limit, but it is still a limit.

[MasterPain]

I disagree, totally. You just went through in detail some diferent limits that the slave can employ, just like nothing public, or no scatology etc. They are not absolute rules which must be obeyed by everybody in all circumstances, most people would employ these as limits, but some may not. In the most extreme circumstance asking a slave to kill themselves is not necessarily an absolute nono, it depends on the level of submission. I doubt anyone in existence would fail to employ the "no death" limit, but it is still a limit.

and that is what i am talking about.. the flexibility of the situation and the limits involved... some are not written but are still there.

[JoMo]

no, you seem to imply that there is some line which should not be crossed, some kind of universal limit which a slave cannot be ordered to go past, if the level of submission is great enough then being ordered to sleep with their boss is perfectly acceptable.

[MasterPain]

no, you seem to imply that there is some line which should not be crossed, some kind of universal limit which a slave cannot be ordered to go past, if the level of submission is great enough then being ordered to sleep with their boss is perfectly acceptable.

of course the slave should be willing to do that. the boss may not appreciate these advances. then the slave will get in trouble, lose their job AND then you ruined their lives. guess how long they will be your slave after that..
NOT LONG you lose out in the long run because you failed the slave.

like i have been saying the slaves should give themselves over to their masters completely, BUT the slave needs to trust that the master has their best interests in mind.

He is quick to understand the differences between fantasy and reality. He would never ask a slave to put him before her career, or family, just to satisfy his own pleasure. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/englishroissy/masters_creed.htm

[JoMo]

but what is best for the slave is no necessarily what is generally regarded as best for most people.

Currently we are in the world of SM. In this world all normal social constructs are shot to pieces. Normal behaviour has no place and is unable to be used as a comparative.

In normal live Job, Family etc. are regarded as important. In an top/bottom relationship this is not necessarily so.

then the slave will get in trouble, lose their job AND then you ruined their lives. guess how long they will be your slave after that..

Why should that necessarily break down the relationship, in alot of cases it would, but what about a true submissive where the act of destroying everything in their lives except for their master, FOR their master is one of the ultimate acts of submission and so enriches their lives. Slaves can have limits, but these in no way conform to normal social doctrines about life. The limits should deal with what the slave sees as important, not what society dictates is important. These may well be the same thing in some cases, but please dont preach a code of SM as if it is a law if it is merely a guideline.

[MasterPain]

But the fact of the matter is, is that the BDSM world exists within the vanilla "normal" world.

so although the people live in the BDSM world have to abide by the rules and restrictions of real life.

we live in a masquerade hidden on the outside of accepted social norms.

there are accepted places where a BDSM is accepted, in clubs and stuff. like i said, there are areas that the social norms and restrictions are lifted, such at your home, bdsm parties, dungeons and clubs.

and you keep on saying that a "True" submissive is completely submissive. but the first right that a submissive has is the right to set limits and not be judged for how much they submit but accepted for the amount of the GIFT of submission they give equally. one slave that wants only to be submissive during some actions and one submissive that completely submits 24/7 are EQUALS even though one has submitted on a different level then another i will never think myself a "better" submissive because i choose to submit on a different level than another.

also and further more you also risk your slaves getting some kind of sexual disease putting her in physical harm as well.. you as a master should screen any outside partners to keep your slave safe.

[JoMo]

but you would whip a slave, that is harmful, why not give her a disease? I'm not saying the SM world is removed from the vanilla world totally, I'm saying the same social rules dont apply in the vanilla world as in the SM world.

True submissive was probably the wrong word to use, more complete submissive. They dont have to live with most of the restrictions of normal life, some they do e.g. they can't fly, thats physically impossible, but most so called "restrictions" of social life are just limits.

Lets look at it in a different way. Lets imagine there is no vanilla world, just a world of subs witht he occasional dom spotted around. Now most of these subs we would consier "vanilla" but lets just imagine "vanilla" is the word used to describe a sub with a specific set of limits which is considered the social , 1 of which is that no person has the power to tell them what to do. Now this is a legitimate description of the world as a whole. If we take a look at the BDSM world then the more extreme the BDSM becomes the more limits we strip away, and theoretically it is possible to strip away all limits. Now you seem to say that there is a point you cant cross, like not giving your slave a disease or jeapordizing their career, but arent those just limits the vanilla people and alot of the other subs employ, but it is still merely a limit, just like not getting whipped is a vanilla limit, it is harmful but the limit on taking the harm can be removed like any other limit.

[MasterPain]

i want to suffer for my Master in ways that please Him and that are safe for me to suffer through.

what you are talking about is abuse of a slave
how dare you compare it to flogging

the principals of BDSM is:

* SAFE: All parties have taken the necessary precautions to prevent psychological and physical damage to themselves, including the transmission of any disease.
* SANE: All parties are in possession of their mental faculties and are aware of the risks involved in the intended play.
* CONSENSUAL: All parties understand the potential risk involved and have consented to these activities. This consent can be withdrawn or modified at any time.

safe sane consensual - without all 3 it's abuse

BDSM is consensual.
The abuser doesn't care about having your permission.

A Master will show concern and caring and compassion for you
The abuser is not concerned with your happiness.

Submission is a gift you give out of love and devotion.
The abuser forces your submission without consent

A Master is in control of Himself, punishment is administered only when necessary, and with care and caution
An abuser is not, He may put you on a "hot seat" and scream at you for hours.

Limits are set and a safe word is respected.
An abuser does not allow limits or safe words.

A Master will be concerned with your happiness.
An abuser will not allow you to voice your concerns or unhappiness. In fact, may tell you your emotions are invalid and have no place with Him.

Precautions are taken so as not to cause mental or physical harm
An abuser takes no precautions, and is not concerned with either your emotional and/or your physical safety.

A Master will comfort you after a scene if you desire.
An abuser will walk away with no regard to your feelings

A Master will respect Your limits, pushing them gently
An abuser will degrade and humiliate you, telling you that a good sub wouldn't set limits and He may not respect your safe word.

A Master will understand your need to have fun occasionally.
An abuser will isolate you from family and friends.

A Master keeps His word of honour.
An abuser is not concerned with keeping His promises.

for flogging and spanking the slave give her/his permission to do so, if it is done right it is safe, if done with a level head it is sane and it is consensual.

for risking exposure to STDs well that is nether SAFE nor SANE

a slave does have basic human rights like we all do.

[SubMissChievous]

I have followed this interesting debate & would like to add my opinion from a submissive's point of view ( as I assume that both MasterPain & JoMo are doms...)

Everyone has fundamental rights & needs: to be healthy, to have a home & food, etc. Those are not decreted by society, they are needs. Needs & limits are two separate things. If you get a disease, you put not only your self at great risks but other's too. If you're jobless, it makes it very difficult then to have a home & food. A true Master/Dom do not want to put their Slave/Sub in such position. Anyone who pretends to be a Master/Dom & would expect a Slave/Sub to put their fundamentals needs at stake are unworthy of that title.

Now I really don't like the use of "true submissive" or "more complete". That implies to me that a Slave /sub has not a right to be intelligent, careful or mentally healthy.

There's a big difference between being submissive & being just plain careless stupid.

Just my opinion...

[damned_virus]

As a sub (and ex master) myself, i can say, it is the responsibility of the master to take care of the slave. To have stewardship over them. Nothing should ever be forced of the slave, if a slave is being forced to do something against their will or above their limits, the whole situation stops being fun.

Well that is my viewpoint, but really as long as the slave and master are in agreement about how it should work, everything should be ok

[JoMo]

* SAFE: All parties have taken the necessary precautions to prevent psychological and physical damage to themselves, including the transmission of any disease.

stop quoting generic and ambiguous paragraphs written by arbritrary figures. But to address this quote: how are you defining physical harm, in the most general sense it is doing damage to the body. Pain is a response to damage to the body. SM(specifically as opposed to BDSM) is about causing a receiving pain and therefore by extension causing and receiving physical harm and so all SM is against the code of BDSM, which obviously doesnt work so unless you can come up with some way where disease is different from flogging or branding or numerous other common practices disease cannot be used as a reason not to do something as an arbritrary limit(a sub can still impose it as a limti obviously).

for risking exposure to STDs well that is nether SAFE nor SANE

how is it less safe or sane than flogging? If you flog someone their is a risk that any wounds inflicted will become infected and could even eventually lead to the death of the sub. The Dom could misuse the whip accidentally and put an eye out. The 'laws' you are invoking are not laws at all, they are subjective guidelines, if most people compared the practices practiced by people int he SM world they would certainly not consider them safe or sane, so why do we? Unless these 'laws' are set out wit specific guidelines for what is considered 'safe; and what is not then they are still merely guidelines.

Everyone has fundamental rights & needs: to be healthy, to have a home & food, etc. Those are not decreted by society, they are needs. Needs & limits are two separate things. If you get a disease, you put not only your self at great risks but other's too. If you're jobless, it makes it very difficult then to have a home & food. A true Master/Dom do not want to put their Slave/Sub in such position. Anyone who pretends to be a Master/Dom & would expect a Slave/Sub to put their fundamentals needs at stake are unworthy of that title.

Yes, your probably right, veryone has the basic right to a home and food and the things that keep us alive, but that doesnt require a job nor does that statement dictate the quality of these needs. In britain a sub could live off the dole if their master wished them to be available at all times, they could lvie with their master and have their master feed them etc.

A master's responsibility is for a subs happiness. If the sub is content and happy in their role then it is a good relationship. If the sub is not happy giving up their job/family/whatever most people see a simportant then the master should not tell them to do it, but if they are in the rare cases then there is no problem with it.

[damned_virus]

A master's responsibility is for a subs happiness. If the sub is content and happy in their role then it is a good relationship. If the sub is not happy giving up their job/family/whatever most people see as important then the master should not tell them to do it, but if they are in the rare cases then there is no problem with it.

i think that is the conclusion that we can draw from this thread, there are no laws that will cover all master/slave relationships, only what the sub is happy with.

[JoMo]

I agree, and I'd just like to point out incase people have the wrong impression, this is NOT a competetition between me and MasterO, but a healthy debate about the principles upon which the things we participate in are based.

[TheLittleStrawberry]

i think that is the conclusion that we can draw from this thread, there are no laws that will cover all master/slave relationships, only what the sub is happy with.

Finally someone got it.

Kids.... These words are... Words of wisdom...
I think its safe to say that everyone is different and not everyone is as "extreme" seen from an outside point of view as others. But for the person it can be very extreme indeed.

Im tired of the "ssc" sentence.... The only thing I believe in is "RACK" - risc-aware consensual kink. As long as you know what you're doing and consent to it, who the hell are to say it''s wrong?

I feel that certain people are almost discriminated against for being in a certain way. I've seen people being called a "doormat" for blindly following their masters orders... But that's what we're meant to do, right? If they are content with it in the end, then we shouldn't judge them...
Also I've often seen people that aren't as extreme being discriminated against... People who hold back from their masters. these people are usually accused of not being a "true" submissive/slave... That sentence enrages me so much, cos why make a person feel bad for who they are? Maybe they like control but hate pain... Maybe pain has some traumatic effect on them.
Who are we to judge anyone?

Bottom line is... If it's not your kink, it doesn't mean it's not ok. Some people are more edgy, others aren't. Some are switches some aren't. But we aren't doing this for others, only for ourselves and our Masters.

[Ktulu]

I too will have to disagree with the post in general. To begin with, I believe that it is socially irresponsible within the lifestyle to suggest that there are specific areas that limits should exist. I think it is dangerous and harms potential opportunities for slave and Master alike to put suggestions in the slaves mind before they themselves have the chance to even come face to face with the event. Human relationships are very dynamic and i have never come accross a situation that could not somehow be worked out to satisfaction of the parties envolved. And in working out, the option for it to not happen at all is a possibility.

You use the example of sleeping with her boss. This is not a legitimit limit that is hard and fast accross the board. In your world it might be true, but in mine it is not, and im sure there others it is not as well. Going to work withouth panties may be the first step in the process of the eventual goal of her becoming the workplace slut.

Just as it is not a hard rule that her job is in danger for offering to sleep with the boss, so it is with not all work environments being conducive to the idea. Every situation is unique and different. I believe that anything a slave and master together wish to achieve, with enough desire and work, as well as sacrafice, can be gotten. I say sacrafice because in the above scenerio, plans may have to be made to find suitable employment. Would that be difficult, and trying in some cases? yes it would, and even that process could lend a delightfull aspect to the struggle of both Master and slave. Anything gained without significant struggle is soon cast aside.

I hate the mention of limits....to me its a admission to oneself that you wish to have your world narrowly defined, without knowing all the possibilities and to exist in a small room when just beyond the wall of that room is the world.

I believe it is important to think, speak, and act in terms of possiblity and opportunity, not in the mindset of lack, or limitation. When we do that, we open the door for the universe to bring us exactly what we wish and work for.

Ktulu