Gorean lifestyle

[Tek]

I have been asked many times what it was to be Gorean and what I had learned by being in this lifestyle for over 18 years. They also wished to know what, in my opinion, were the differences between BDSM and Gorean. I thought about this for awhile and did some web research.

All that follows is obviously my own opinion and not designed to be a flam against anyone or any lifestyle or start any "angry" discussions.

The differences between BDSM and Gorean lifestyles:

There are claims that Gorean is a sub-culture of BDSM. In this, I emphatically disagree! Number One, Gorean is not so much a Culture as it is a LIFESTYLE. Two, The only similarity between Gorean and BDSM is only if there is a slave involved ( you can be Gorean and have no slave, but I do not think you can be into BDSM and have no sub….unless you are masochistic and whip yourself, LOL ) and only then because we both use bondage and punishments to train or control the actions of the sub/slave.

A few words come to mind when I think on this subject, they are:

Ownership

Responsibility

Commitment

Love

Trust

Loyalty.

A Gorean relationship encompasses all of these, the slave is LOYAL and COMMITED to her Master, she believes in him and TRUSTS him to do what is right for her and she typically LOVES her Master with all her heart and soul. A true Gorean relationship is 24/7, 365 days a year and the kajira will usually live with her Master.

The kajira gives over her entire life: body, mind and soul to her Master. He OWNES her and does with her as he wishes, but he is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for her health, care and well-being. He will punish her for transgressions, disobedience or not being pleasing, but rarely is he brutal or sadistic in his punishments.

Not to say that a BDSM relationship could not also encompass these things, but the typical BDSM relationship is a PLAY type relationship of serious/severe bondage, whippings, brutality and/or sadism up to and including scarring and possible mutilation.

It is also where the Dom/Domme and sub come together for “sessions” of play. There are “safe words” a word or phrase that the sub may utter to say “I have had enough, stop!” or “I am done with this session, time to go home”. A Dom/Domme is rarely “responsible” to his/her sub since she/he does not live with them and goes their own way after the session.

In a lot of these relationships there is no love and rarely even any caring of the sub. It is “play” and just a power trip and enjoyment of cruelty to another for the Dom/Domme.


Gorean lifestyle philosophy:

This is what I believe to be the philosophy of the lifestyle and on being a Gorean Master:

Gorean is a lifestyle. It is living by a set of personal “codes”, usually based upon Honor, Truthfulness, Self-discipline, and Integrity, on a daily basis both at home and in the world at large.

You will find many opinions and definitions as to what it is to be "Gorean".

Basically the lifestyle is based upon the fantasy novels called "Gor" that were written by John Norman. You can Google "Gor" or "Gorean" and there are many websites with information. Be cautious, however, for there is as much, if not more, “mis-information” as there is truth. Ultimately you must speak with those who are Gorean to find the truth. Here again, you must be cautious, there are many who claim to be “Gorean” but are in truth wanabee’s, BDSM crossovers, or those who just wish dominance and control over another.

It is usually best to find a responsible, well managed, Gorean board or chat site where the Administrators take their roles seriously and weed out the riff-raff. 


The Gorean kajira (slave girl):

The lifestyle may also contain a relationship between a Man and female in a Master/slave relationship, in which, the female gives total control to the Master.

The Gorean kajira (slave girl) is "owned" property and can be done with as the Master wishes.

She must be aware that she has no rights, not even to her name, and should therefore have no expectations on how she should be treated. She should know, deep within herself that she will be treated in whatever fashion the Master wishes and must accept that fact. She should expect no special considerations or attentions from the Master.

She may at times be lavishly loved both physically and emotionally and at other times be completely ignored or treated as a piece of furniture. These are a few of the realities of the Gorean kajira.

I have been Gorean for almost 20 years, and in my personal view on the lifestyle, a Master treats his slave as a cherished possession and cares for and maintains his kajira in health and well-being. A Master trains his girl and helps her strive to bring forth the true slave that she is deep inside.

This is not to say that the girl is not subject to discipline and punishment, she is! A kajira must be totally obedient and pleasing to the Master otherwise she can be whipped, chained, deprived, etc., at the Master's whim.

My own personal outlook on punishment is to dispense a punishment fitting to the transgression. I can be firm and provide strong punishments if that is needed. Like I said before, I am not into the abuse type punishments such as burning, cutting, cutting off circulation with bondage or anything like that. I can and will give a good beating or use bondage to put the girl in uncomfortable positions as punishment. I may make her sleep on a cold floor and/or make her eat on her hands & knees from a bowl on the floor.

I get no pleasure or thrill out of punishing my kajira, but I do so to help her learn and develop her inner slave self.

I found the following on the web and I fully agree with the tenants it proscribes:

_____________________

I am Master…..

I am Master—not because I shout orders and fight—but because I do not have to shout, and only fight as a last resort.

I am Master—not because my name starts with a capital—but because I know my strength and my weakness.

I am Master---not because someone calls me that—but because I have mastered my inner self.

I am Master—not because I know more than you—but because I will listen to you and share what little I know.

I am Master---not because I demand blind obedience—but because when a slave gives me her self totally I am brought to my knees with the weight of her gift and the responsibility that comes with it.

I am Master---not because I strut and posture—but because I am strong enough to accept a slave’s gift and not run from it in fear.

I am Master—not because I am so wonderful—but because I have been given something that not many ever have—the gift of a slave’s Heart and Soul

--Author unknown
__________________________


My expectations as a Master are obedience and service. As stated before I am not harsh or cruel. I do not even think I am all that demanding.

I expect the home to be kept clean and orderly.

I expect my kajira to care for themselves and for me.

I expect my kajira to be and feel sexy and be sensual.

So here is the first chapter to my novel. If you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them.


-Tek

[Collared_Slave]

This sounds interesting but can only girls be slaves in gorean?

[SubMissChievous]

Tek,

Before I even start commenting on your post I want to assure you that I respect your opinions and that my following comments are also based on personal opinions of mine and, no, I am not “angry” :) But I have to admit that some of your statements made me raised an eyebrow to say the least…

The only similarity between Gorean and BDSM is only if there is a slave involved ( you can be Gorean and have no slave, but I do not think you can be into BDSM and have no sub….unless you are masochistic and whip yourself, LOL )

Well, I must say for starters (as it will make all my other comments clearer) that I don’t see any difference between Gor and BDSM. I see just as much difference between both labels as there is between a car and an automobile. All these nice labels: BDSM, Gorean, Master/slave, WIITWD, etc. are just that to me: labels and I don’t really subscribe to any of these. It all comes down to D/s one way or another. People choose the label they prefer as they choose the color of car they prefer as well. And there’s not one “lifestyle” that is more real or better than another as there’s not one color of car better than another. It’s just a matter of preference.

And speaking of preferences: since to me it’s all D/s anyone can be dominant or submissive without “living the lifestyle”. Being dominant or submissive is, for many, a sexual orientation. I didn’t become submissive the day I found a Master, I was born that way and it is true for most people I’ve talked to. Being dominant or submissive is not about what a person does: it’s about what they are.

but the typical BDSM relationship is a PLAY type relationship of serious/severe bondage, whippings, brutality and/or sadism up to and including scarring and possible mutilation.

It is also where the Dom/Domme and sub come together for “sessions” of play. There are “safe words” a word or phrase that the sub may utter to say “I have had enough, stop!” or “I am done with this session, time to go home”. A Dom/Domme is rarely “responsible” to his/her sub since she/he does not live with them and goes their own way after the session.

In a lot of these relationships there is no love and rarely even any caring of the sub. It is “play” and just a power trip and enjoyment of cruelty to another for the Dom/Domme.

This is the part where I raised some eyebrow… well… to be honest I almost fell off my chair :D The way you describe BDSM as only play where the dominant is usually brutal, rarely responsible, loving and caring… it makes it all sounds as if you’re trying to say that if you’re not Gor then you’re not “real”… And saying that BDSM is all about play sessions with nothing else involved… Much much clichés here…

I appreciate the fact that you love your Gorean life so much and I wholeheartedly agree about responsibility, commitment, love, trust, loyalty and all that jazz. But again you don’t have to label yourself as Gorean to embrace them! All these things… it’s all about common sense. Any type of relationship that does not involve them at least to some degree is bound to fail no matter what catchy label you attach to it. Most people do care and are responsible even if they just play it. Even most youngsters who play TorD here are intelligent and sensible enough about such things. What you describe about a "BDSM dom" being irresponsible and uncaring and brutal and cruel… it sounds more like what we can see in BDSM porn anyway :rolleyes: It is so far away from reality. And I don’t know any serious dominant who label themselves as BDSMers who are like what you described.

You can Google "Gor" or "Gorean" and there are many websites with information. Be cautious, however, for there is as much, if not more, “mis-information” as there is truth. Ultimately you must speak with those who are Gorean to find the truth. Here again, you must be cautious, there are many who claim to be “Gorean” but are in truth wanabee’s, BDSM crossovers, or those who just wish dominance and control over another.

Yes, I agree with you about being cautious and mis-information when searching the web. Not only concerning Gor but any type of D/s sites. I personally am also cautious about people who believe they know THE TRUTH and who claim to be “real” and label others who are not like them as “wannabes”…

Finally, again, I’m sorry if I come across as cynical in some of my comments. Like I said I agree with the basics of your post but not with the idea that there is one way to live a D/s relationship that is better or truer. But yet I’m just that kind of girl who prefers to follow her own beliefs and ideals and not to pattern them on some fantasy novel. And I am seriously allergic to labels and clichés. To each their own though :)

[CheshireCat_13]

As Chloe has said, some of your comments have me raising my eyebrows....and no, I don't wish to be rude, and I'm not angry. Everyone has their own opinions.

"A Gorean relationship encompasses all of these, the slave is LOYAL and COMMITED to her Master, she believes in him and TRUSTS him to do what is right for her and she typically LOVES her Master with all her heart and soul. A true Gorean relationship is 24/7, 365 days a year and the kajira will usually live with her Master."
I live with my master, I love my master, and I trust him to do what's right.

"The kajira gives over her entire life: body, mind and soul to her Master. He OWNES her and does with her as he wishes, but he is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for her health, care and well-being. He will punish her for transgressions, disobedience or not being pleasing, but rarely is he brutal or sadistic in his punishments."
Hmm, that sounds nice. Well, I am punished for the same things, and the punishments usually relate to the offence. They're not sadistic....

"Not to say that a BDSM relationship could not also encompass these things, but the typical BDSM relationship is a PLAY type relationship of serious/severe bondage, whippings, brutality and/or sadism up to and including scarring and possible mutilation.
It is also where the Dom/Domme and sub come together for “sessions” of play. There are “safe words” a word or phrase that the sub may utter to say “I have had enough, stop!” or “I am done with this session, time to go home”. A Dom/Domme is rarely “responsible” to his/her sub since she/he does not live with them and goes their own way after the session."
Ahh....I am most definitely not scarred. I have a safe word. I know not to use it lightly. My master also has a safe word. And my master must be responsible because I happen to live with him....But I do agree that a lot of BDSM relationships are simply play.

In a lot of these relationships there is no love and rarely even any caring of the sub. It is “play” and just a power trip and enjoyment of cruelty to another for the Dom/Domme.
Eeep. If my dom was cruel I would be scared. Thankfully, he's loving. I also agree here, a lot of relationships are power plays.


"The Gorean kajira (slave girl):

The lifestyle may also contain a relationship between a Man and female in a Master/slave relationship, in which, the female gives total control to the Master.
The Gorean kajira (slave girl) is "owned" property and can be done with as the Master wishes.
She must be aware that she has no rights, not even to her name, and should therefore have no expectations on how she should be treated. She should know, deep within herself that she will be treated in whatever fashion the Master wishes and must accept that fact. She should expect no special considerations or attentions from the Master.
She may at times be lavishly loved both physically and emotionally and at other times be completely ignored or treated as a piece of furniture. These are a few of the realities of the Gorean kajira.
Hmm. That sounds very similar to my relationship, except for the fact that I am rarely treated like furniture....

"My own personal outlook on punishment is to dispense a punishment fitting to the transgression. I can be firm and provide strong punishments if that is needed. Like I said before, I am not into the abuse type punishments such as burning, cutting, cutting off circulation with bondage or anything like that. I can and will give a good beating or use bondage to put the girl in uncomfortable positions as punishment. I may make her sleep on a cold floor and/or make her eat on her hands & knees from a bowl on the floor."
Thanks for the punishment ideas, my master will make good use of them. He ever cuts off my circulation though, he has never burned me, and he has never cut me.

"My expectations as a Master are obedience and service. As stated before I am not harsh or cruel. I do not even think I am all that demanding.

I expect the home to be kept clean and orderly.

I expect my kajira to care for themselves and for me.

I expect my kajira to be and feel sexy and be sensual."
I clean, I cook, I keep up my appearance. Wonderful. Hmm...Does that mean I live a Gorean lifestyle? It's an interesting though.

[Officelover]

I must agree, this sounds pretty much the same. Correct me if I'm wron,g but as I understand it there are two main 'levels' of S/M.

The lighter level is kind of just a relationship in which there are sessions or plays or scenes in which a kink is 'acted' out through the principles of BDSM (Bondage, Dicipline, Dominance, Submission, Sadism, and Masochism).

The other level is a 24/7 relationship, which sounds curiously exactly like a Gorean lifestyle. In this type of relationship it is accepted that the slave is the master's 'property' and there are constant sets of rules.

This may or may not be accurate, but I am relatively new to the Lifestyle.

Officelover

P.S. I'm sorry this got technical; I love teminology!

[lydiab6]

As it has mostly been said already, I just want to throw my two cents in that having a slave does not determine whether or not you are into BDSM.

First of all, the M part of the BDSM is both masochism and Master. Usually the slave is into BDSM as well.

Secondly, one can be dominant and/or submissive which falls into the category of BDSM and does not necessarily result in a Master/slave relationship.

Or, one can simply be into bondage without power play between the person doing the tying and the one being tied.

And I'm sorry. I not angry with you, or your opinions, but I am annoyed at the use of the word typical. No relationship of any kind is "TYPICAL". Every person is different which means that every relationship is different, and there is nothing that can really be categorized as typical, because to say something is typical defined it as that, and everyone whose relationship doesn't fit that description then becomes atypical, and its not right.

I apologize for the slight rant

[CleverGirl]

I have to agree with Chloe and Chesire. I think they said it all. What really made me, to steal Chloe's line, "raise my eyebrows," was that you implied that, in non-Gorean M/s, all punishments are based on permanent damage, mutilation, and other dangerous stuff "like purposefully cutting off circulation." Not the case. Most Master's would never, ever, multilate their slaves or purposefully put them in serious danger. In fact, there are classes and workshops out there that teach you how to do things like suspension bondage and whipping, without harming your sub. And if you check out the "fun with candles" thread under Punishment Ideas, Merlin goes into extreme detail to inform Masters and slaves which candles are safe to use and which leave scars. Doesn't sound like he, or the people he is informing, want to scar their slaves. They all look like they're responisble Masters who are ensuring that their slaves stay safe. I respect your lifestyle, but I think you have been misinformed when it comes to M/s.

[TensionRoom101]

Gor has no place in my BDSM lifestyle, and I see only a small overlap between the two. Very few of my BDSM community would class their relationship as Gor.

[Night-1991]

The chap above me is too stubborn to even give gor a try.

fact is, the positions can be taken hand and hand into bdsm, aswell as some other parts of it.

but that is for those who practice the two lifestyles to decide.

[TheLittleStrawberry]

No offence to anyone.. But I see Gor as just an added fantasy-aspect to a normal BDSM relationship... unloving Gor-relationships exist too btw.

But whatever makes you happy... :)

Btw I saw this wedding-video on Youtube were everyone was dressed as Star Wars characters. pretty fun.

[TensionRoom101]

The chap above me is too stubborn to even give gor a try.

fact is, the positions can be taken hand and hand into bdsm, aswell as some other parts of it.

but that is for those who practice the two lifestyles to decide.

How do you know I haven't given it a try?

My current relationship isn't 24/7, purely because of geography and other domestic hurdles, but we will soon live together with her three children and my youngest one. However, I have had sufficient longterm 24/7 BDSM relationships to know that the dynamic of all were different, and different methods of control, reward and discipline were employed with each. True Gor lifestylers (and those that pretend to be but are actually BDSM fantasists who aren't creative enough to come up with their own scenario) would recognise elements of their credo in each of them, but not the same elements.

Far from being slaves however, my subs are granted more freedom than in any of their former vanilla marriages. I do not expect or demand compliance or obedience. If they have issues they are expected to bring them to me, and if they think I am unreasonable, they are invited to put their case.

I use whips, floggers, spankings and other forms of PLEASURE for my submissives on their request. It is NOT punishment and is done because they like it- in fact they must earn it as a treat because it is NOT something I do to get MY kicks.

I have been a follower of fetish and bdsm for over 20 years, and VERY active on the local and not so local fetish scene for about 8 of those, and I help run 2 fet clubs. I can honestly say that much of what the OP describes as TYPICAL of a BDSM relationship would get the 'players' banned from most of the clubs I attend. There are safewords for some, especially if not playing with a regular partner, and there is always a house safeword at a club, but few use them with their partners in their own private play.

There have been relationships of the kind Goreans espouse for hundreds of years- long before someone decided to take a work of fiction and use it to relabel something that was far from new. It would be akin to JK Rowling relabelling baseball 'thumperstick', and then followers of hers telling us all if we don't call it thundersticks we are stubborn or not doing it right.

The tenets espoused at the end of the OP- beginning I am a Master -- not because.. hold true to any who have stewardship over others, whether Masters, Doms, Teachers, Warriors, Spiritual Teachers. They are for from being exclusive to BDSM, never mind Gor.

Mike

[TheLittleStrawberry]

How do you know I haven't given it a try?

My current relationship isn't 24/7, purely because of geography and other domestic hurdles, but we will soon live together with her three children and my youngest one. However, I have had sufficient longterm 24/7 BDSM relationships to know that the dynamic of all were different, and different methods of control, reward and discipline were employed with each. True Gor lifestylers (and those that pretend to be but are actually BDSM fantasists who aren't creative enough to come up with their own scenario) would recognise elements of their credo in each of them, but not the same elements.

Far from being slaves however, my subs are granted more freedom than in any of their former vanilla marriages. I do not expect or demand compliance or obedience. If they have issues they are expected to bring them to me, and if they think I am unreasonable, they are invited to put their case.

I use whips, floggers, spankings and other forms of PLEASURE for my submissives on their request. It is NOT punishment and is done because they like it- in fact they must earn it as a treat because it is NOT something I do to get MY kicks.

I have been a follower of fetish and bdsm for over 20 years, and VERY active on the local and not so local fetish scene for about 8 of those, and I help run 2 fet clubs. I can honestly say that much of what the OP describes as TYPICAL of a BDSM relationship would get the 'players' banned from most of the clubs I attend. There are safewords for some, especially if not playing with a regular partner, and there is always a house safeword at a club, but few use them with their partners in their own private play.

There have been relationships of the kind Goreans espouse for hundreds of years- long before someone decided to take a work of fiction and use it to relabel something that was far from new. It would be akin to JK Rowling relabelling baseball 'thumperstick', and then followers of hers telling us all if we don't call it thundersticks we are stubborn or not doing it right.

The tenets espoused at the end of the OP- beginning I am a Master -- not because.. hold true to any who have stewardship over others, whether Masters, Doms, Teachers, Warriors, Spiritual Teachers. They are for from being exclusive to BDSM, never mind Gor.

Mike

This whole post made no sense.

[TensionRoom101]

None of it? Ah well.
You're not expected to understand or recognise BDSM in all it's guises at 42 though, let alone 20.

[TheLittleStrawberry]

None of it? Ah well.
You're not expected to understand or recognise BDSM in all it's guises at 42 though, let alone 20.

No... What I meant was... The post was so poorly-written that it just didn't make sense... You never really came with a point. maybe you should discuss one thing at a time instead of 10 where most of it is just babbling on about stuff :)

[TensionRoom101]

I guess so. I had been out partying in latex all night before, but that's hardly an excuse. The first post covered so many things that I wanted to comment on- I'll revisit it and address my points separately if anyone's interested.

Ta

[CheshireCat_13]

It made sense to me, but I'm not sure if you're agreeing with the OP or with the others, or with both.....

[TheLittleStrawberry]

It made sense to me, but I'm not sure if you're agreeing with the OP or with the others, or with both.....

Dunno... What I understood out of it is that he had 2 SM clubs :D

It honestly seemed more like 'info' rather than taking any side O.o

[TensionRoom101]

Dunno... What I understood out of it is that he had 2 SM clubs :D

It honestly seemed more like 'info' rather than taking any side O.o

Not really my intention hon. Just that the original poster made some sweeping generalisations about what most BDSM relationships tend to be about, and I was trying to point out that that wasn't my experience at all. The mention of the fetish clubs was purely to annotate that I have a large circle of real life BDSM and fet friends from whom to draw that observation, rather than just reading literotica.

You do know that the books of Gor are works of fiction right? And although many have adopted it as a lifestyle since and live it out for real, the vast majority of BDSMers who've been active for much longer continue to do what they do without the need for hip rebranding.

As to whether I was agreeing or not, depends on how the original was meant to be read. There were in it some ludicrous statements ("I do not think you can be into BDSM and have no sub" for example), and in my post, rambling though it clearly was, I was endeavouring to show that there are examples of real life genuine lifestylers, myself included, who would not relate to Gor, and not take too kindly to being associated with wannabes on the basis that we aren't Gorean.

[TheLittleStrawberry]

Not really my intention hon. Just that the original poster made some sweeping generalisations about what most BDSM relationships tend to be about, and I was trying to point out that that wasn't my experience at all. The mention of the fetish clubs was purely to annotate that I have a large circle of real life BDSM and fet friends from whom to draw that observation, rather than just reading literotica.

You do know that the books of Gor are works of fiction right? And although many have adopted it as a lifestyle since and live it out for real, the vast majority of BDSMers who've been active for much longer continue to do what they do without the need for hip rebranding.

As to whether I was agreeing or not, depends on how the original was meant to be read. There were in it some ludicrous statements ("I do not think you can be into BDSM and have no sub" for example), and in my post, rambling though it clearly was, I was endeavouring to show that there are examples of real life genuine lifestylers, myself included, who would not relate to Gor, and not take too kindly to being associated with wannabes on the basis that we aren't Gorean.

Whatever :) Many of the BDSM people and alike are arrogant people who all believe their way is the true way... This is why I honestly dislike communities. 80% of the conversation are about who's right and who's wrong.. In fact I don't wanna be put in the BDSM-category at all... I'm just myself, and I don't follow any set rules except those me and My master create for ourselves.

I find many communities to be very judgmental of people who think outside the box.

[Night-1991]

Whatever :) Many of the BDSM people and alike are arrogant people who all believe their way is the true way... This is why I honestly dislike communities. 80% of the conversation are about who's right and who's wrong.. In fact I don't wanna be put in the BDSM-category at all... I'm just myself, and I don't follow any set rules except those me and My master create for ourselves.

I find many communities to be very judgmental of people who think outside the box.

That post was just epic win! XD

[TheLittleStrawberry]

That post was just epic win! XD

O.o.... why?


blargh blaargh bloorghhh bloareegh

[SubMissChievous]

What annoys me about the original post is mostly that it sounds like... you know those fanatic cult followers that come knocking at your door at 8:30 am to help you "see the light"... In their minds there is only one way: THEIR way... I see this each time I go on some other sites... bdsm vs. gor; slave vs. sub; online vs. "real" life; lifestylers vs. hobbyists... It's really old but fortunately enough it seems that on getDare the younger crowd are a bit more open-minded. I'm glad to see that the s/m lounge is not filled with such divisive and unproductive stuff :) Debating is one thing but going on and on to teach right from wrong? No thanks :)

blargh blaargh bloorghhh bloareegh

How come I can somehow understand this??!! :D

[TensionRoom101]

What annoys me about the original post is mostly that it sounds like... you know those fanatic cult followers that come knocking at your door at 8:30 am to help you "see the light"... In their minds there is only one way: THEIR way... I see this each time I go on some other sites... bdsm vs. gor; slave vs. sub; online vs. "real" life; lifestylers vs. hobbyists... It's really old but fortunately enough it seems that on getDare the younger crowd are a bit more open-minded. I'm glad to see that the s/m lounge is not filled with such divisive and unproductive stuff :) Debating is one thing but going on and on to teach right from wrong? No thanks :)

How come I can somehow understand this??!! :D

Absolutely 100%. In any scene all should be welcome. There are always some archaic views that need breaking down, and likewise some young pretenders that need whipping into shape. I am involved in fetish clubs (as opposed to BDSM clubs) and they can be worse. As you say there is no right or wrong way. There are 6 billion of us on this rock, and every person's experience is equally valid, and if it works for them and no-one is getting hurt then it's no-one else's business. Our 150+ community has gay, straight, bi, TV, adult baby, rubberists, cuckolds, and you're right, there's a lot of us with opinions that appear inflexible. I'd like to think I've been only open, honest and where possible informative around here though, and will continue to do so until it's not welcome.

The nature of any lively discussion board needs to promote just that though. A board on which everyone agrees, and those that don't stay quiet, probably wouldn't really be that active board.

[Officelover]

Our 150+ community has gay, straight, bi, TV, adult baby, rubberists, cuckolds, and you're right, there's a lot of us with opinions that appear inflexible.

Really? I've heard those rubberists' opinions are pretty flexible.

(I'm so sorry. I really can't help myself. :oI know this is a serious thread, but it's no use trying to keep me from bad jokes. I'll post something serious too to keep everyone happy:))

Yeah, I must say, these divisions are pointless. I, personally, think that it would be better not to classify things as Gor/Non-Gor. And certainly, not one way is 'right'. I mean, from a totally different perspective, I could say that the Gorean lifestyle goes against all morals and principles of the free world, in of that one human being is 'anothers'.

I won't say that. (Even though I kind of did.) The point is that this bickering is stupid. It wastes time from real issues.

[CheshireCat_13]

Really? I've heard those rubberists' opinions are pretty flexible.

(I'm so sorry. I really can't help myself. :oI know this is a serious thread, but it's no use trying to keep me from bad jokes. I'll post something serious too to keep everyone happy:))

It's okay, we forgive you! :D

I won't say that. (Even though I kind of did.) The point is that this bickering is stupid. It wastes time from real issues.

Hmm, sorry, can't resist myself...philosophy is one of my favorite topics. What real issues are there in life? compared to that of earth, our lives are really too short to make much of a difference in the long run. Unless of course, you happen to have an incredible goal, the means to achieve that goal, the will to work hard, the power to make your opponents (and there will be many) stop resisting you or the power to get around them...and many other things. Which, most of us don't. And, if we spent all day bickering about inconsequential issues but we were happy people, is that a bad thing? We could also spend all day bickering about real issues, as they are called, and be completely miserable and on the verge of depression, and is that a good thing? It all depends on what makes you happy.......sorry that I'm ranting about something completely off topic, I just couldn't keep my paws off of the subject. :D

[Officelover]

Hmm, sorry, can't resist myself...philosophy is one of my favorite topics. What real issues are there in life? compared to that of earth, our lives are really too short to make much of a difference in the long run. Unless of course, you happen to have an incredible goal, the means to achieve that goal, the will to work hard, the power to make your opponents (and there will be many) stop resisting you or the power to get around them...and many other things. Which, most of us don't. And, if we spent all day bickering about inconsequential issues but we were happy people, is that a bad thing? We could also spend all day bickering about real issues, as they are called, and be completely miserable and on the verge of depression, and is that a good thing? It all depends on what makes you happy.......sorry that I'm ranting about something completely off topic, I just couldn't keep my paws off of the subject. :D[/quote]

(I am only debating here:)

Yes, perhaps our lives are short, but they certainl can make a difference. Abraham created three religions in one, each of which still survives p this day. Certainly, these threee religions have a profound effect on the world. George Washington and his officers and soldiers led America to independence. America certainly has impacted this world. Those are just two examples.

I do agree that happiness takes precedence over arguments like this (which, by the way is not an inconsequential issue). But, in truth, a balance shuld be struck. No human being should live in spiritual and philisophical (or even political) ignorance. But then again, no one should have this consume their lives, or they will get terribly depressed.

[CleverGirl]

I am a double major and one of my majors is philosophy so I really can't resist. In my opinion truth is the ultimate goal because only by knowing the truth can we act properly and make a difference in the world. If we make decisions based off of lies, we are bound to harm ourselves and others. If you are underwater and base your actions off of the belief that you are in air and attempt to breath, you'll drown. So, debate about anything is fine, as long as debaters have support for their opinions ( have a lack blind faith) and are willing to consider the opinions of others in the serach for truth. I don't think that either Gor or BDSM is the "right" way to go, for example, but there are aspects of both I stay away from for moral reasons. So I don't think that there aren't "wrong" facets of BDSM, Gor, ect. For example, some people into BDSM are also into beastiality, but because an animal cannot give consent, I believe that beastiality is wrong. At the same time, I know that I could be wrong, so I try to consider the opinions of others and always keep an open mind. Simultaneously, I shouldn't believe everything I hear, just consider it, and then act based off what I think is "true" or "right." So, is there a correct way of doing M/s or BDSM or Gor? No, but there are wrong ways. (I hate pluralism). But there are also apsects of both that are moral or amoral.

[Officelover]

I am a double major and one of my majors is philosophy so I really can't resist. In my opinion truth is the ultimate goal because only by knowing the truth can we act properly and make a difference in the world. If we make decisions based off of lies, we are bound to harm ourselves and others. If you are underwater and base your actions off of the belief that you are in air and attempt to breath, you'll drown. So, debate about anything is fine, as long as debaters have support for their opinions ( have a lack blind faith) and are willing to consider the opinions of others in the serach for truth. I don't think that either Gor or BDSM is the "right" way to go, for example, but there are aspects of both I stay away from for moral reasons. So I don't think that there aren't "wrong" facets of BDSM, Gor, ect. For example, some people into BDSM are also into beastiality, but because an animal cannot give consent, I believe that beastiality is wrong. At the same time, I know that I could be wrong, so I try to consider the opinions of others and always keep an open mind. Simultaneously, I shouldn't believe everything I hear, just consider it, and then act based off what I think is "true" or "right." So, is there a correct way of doing M/s or BDSM or Gor? No, but there are wrong ways. (I hate pluralism). But there are also apsects of both that are moral or amoral.

Does that make you a moral relativst or a moral absolutist?

Not really exactly on topic, but I think it's relevant to her response. I am a moral absoluto-relavist. I coined the phrase :). To relate it to the thread, it means I believe that somethings will always be good an dthings will awlways be bad. Like murder can never be good, or charity can never be evil. Of course people will offer "what ifs..." but, in truth a general set of rules are the pillars that our world's moral system is based on. These can never be changed or corrupted. In my opinion if an action has do with hatred, it is instantaneously evil. If an action has to do with love, it is instantaneously good. On them is a spherical moral relative. It changes with the way society feels.

To relate this to the thread, there are some 'pillars' of BDSM that can't be changed or it becomes evil, like an unconsenting relationship, or failure to uphold safety. Slowly people's opinions about Gor and S/M and all different types of BDSM simer down to the core, or truth and good (and happiness) which is pearched upon the pillars.

[CheshireCat_13]

Ahhh! The beautiful issue of morality. I personally, respect others' morals, although I believe that some people don't see enough gray in the world. I don't really have anything in my life that I would define as either black or white, everything is in different shades of gray. Similarly, I don't have a set of moral that the general society has, but I have a honor code with rules that I will not break. That though, is still gray because if circumstances come up in which I must either break the rules that I have set up or die, then I will choose to live. Although, if death would be better than breaking the rule at that time, I would choose to die. So, in my opinion, nothing is really defined.
In response to officelover's opinion that if an action has do with hatred, it is instantaneously evil or if an action has to do with love, it is instantaneously good, I would politely disagree. Not with the general idea, but with the statement that some people have done things out of blind love and utterly destroyed someone else's world. Als, some people have done things out of pure hatred and good has come out of it. If bad coms out of good, and good comes out of bad, is it really a matter of good or evil?

And to relate this to the thread, while BDSM stands upon pillars of truth and happiness and good and not pillars of sand (can anyone tell me what song I'm referring to?), it is not necessarily evil if the pillars are knocked down. An accidental lapse in safety does not have to be evil, it can be merely an act of stupidity and carelessness.

So, I conclude that the world is in gray tones!

[Officelover]

So, I conclude that the world is in gray tones!

No, the world is colorized. Let me explain myself; never is anything gray. The are infinite colors, right. Each of these is one of the ways to look at the world. Each way is good. But some people don't like blue, but prefer purple. It's fine o prefer views of the world, but isn't fine to deny recognition of a view, or say that a valid vie is evil. There are always contrary colors; the don't hate each other, or work against eachother. They accent eachother like happiness and sadness (If we were always happy, happiness would not be fun anymore.) We need to view the world in many colors. I we see the world only in red, we miss all the blue things, and the yellow things, etc...

Rarely are there things so powerful as white. White contains all other colors. Therefore, in this spectrum white is absolute good, truth, love, happiness, or virtue.

Black is the total absense of color. Just as black, in the physical world, retains heat, evil retains anger and hate. It tries to get rid of all other colors and white especially. But since black doesn't really exist, it simply wants all other colors to not exist too. But it can't truly destroy color, because color is always there.

So we should try to paint with as wide a pallete as posible; but should we mix things? No, because, it's like what happens when we mix green and red; we get an ugly shade of brown. A corrupted color- a near black. This is what happens when we mix two happinesses or goods that should have remained seperate.

It's like, for example, how some people think psychology is enjoyable. Well, what happens if they apply Freud to their everyday life? They ruin perfectly good fun and happiness, an daccuse themselves of being pointless and evil.

*Ends philisophical ramblings*

[Kage]

I'm usually against grave digging, but I just had to open up this coffin. I feel this thread deserved more feedback. I've always felt TPE (Total Power Exchange) and Gor were quite similar; only difference was that the Gor lifestyle had a nice book series to support it as a foundation.

Now, my first sub was previously a Karija before I found her. I believe she asked to be set free from her Master. Now, from what she told me of her time as a slavegirl, it is very demanding, but you don't attempt to make something apart of your lifestyle with expectations of it being an easy task.

Now, my first experience of talking to a Gorean Master was quite an unpleasant one. Putting it mildly, I loathed him; it didn't help that he was my sub's previous Master and he acted like his leash was still around her neck (to be honest, it somewhat was). The reason for my loathsomeness towards him was because he acted so high and mighty and attempted to belittle me.

It wasn't to my benefit that he was also had a major or something in psychology, so he was playing mind games with me. But, I'm getting sidetracked here...

I respect your opinion on the differences between Gor & BDSM, but my eyebrows soared for the heavens at one point when you described BDSM. Now, I'm too tired to quote but I'm sure many people raised their brows.

While some of what you said rang true, even if a bit made me cringe, not all m/s relationships follow what you believe to be the standard BDSM relationship. :)

[Anjelen]

I have been asked many times what it was to be Gorean and what I had learned by being in this lifestyle for over 18 years. They also wished to know what, in my opinion, were the differences between BDSM and Gorean. I thought about this for awhile and did some web research.

All that follows is obviously my own opinion and not designed to be a flam against anyone or any lifestyle or start any "angry" discussions.

The differences between BDSM and Gorean lifestyles:

There are claims that Gorean is a sub-culture of BDSM. In this, I emphatically disagree! Number One, Gorean is not so much a Culture as it is a LIFESTYLE. Two, The only similarity between Gorean and BDSM is only if there is a slave involved ( you can be Gorean and have no slave, but I do not think you can be into BDSM and have no sub….unless you are masochistic and whip yourself, LOL ) and only then because we both use bondage and punishments to train or control the actions of the sub/slave.

- BDSM, as a lifestyle, is older than Gor. Much of the rituals and use of language from the Gorean lifestyle comes from BDSM 'high protocol', though seems to have been exaggerated to a stifling degree. As always, each to their own, but making sweeping generalizations is a lot easier when you know what you're talking about.

- Punishments and bondage are by far not the only or even the most desired methods of training a slave, sub, or kajira. I myself have had much easier and better results from a style based on Positive Reinforcement - Quietly ignoring bad behavior where possible - where it doesn't blatantly and willfully fly into the rules and parameters set for the engagement - with an emphasis on rewarding good behavior.

- One can be into BDSM - wether as a Dominant or Submissive - without having one's counterpart - One's partner does not define one's self. I am Dominant, with or without a sub or slave to call my own - my subs, even without me, would be submissives - Dominance and Submission, and any part on the scale between them, are personality traits, not defined by one's actions but rather by one's personality itself.

A few words come to mind when I think on this subject, they are:

Ownership
Legal ownership of a sub, slave, or Kajira can never be obtained.

Responsibility
Even outside BDSM one has the responsibility to make a relationship a good one for all parties involved.

Commitment
Commitment to a relationship should be mutual in allcases.
Love

Trust

Loyalty.
Neither one of wich is a given; all of these should be earned, mutually and equally.
A Gorean relationship encompasses all of these, the slave is LOYAL and COMMITED to her Master, she believes in him and TRUSTS him to do what is right for her and she typically LOVES her Master with all her heart and soul. A true Gorean relationship is 24/7, 365 days a year and the kajira will usually live with her Master.
My late wife has lived with me, as my slave, my wife and my soul mate, for nearly ten years before she passed on. Even if between her and myself we didn't usually use the titles and little rituals associated with D/s, she and i both at any and all times lived D/s as a lifestyle - i was her Master, she was my Slave. She was as committed to me as i was to her, she believed in me, she lived for me, she loved me - and those feelings were entirely mutual.

The kajira gives over her entire life: body, mind and soul to her Master. He OWNES her and does with her as he wishes, but he is ultimately RESPONSIBLE for her health, care and well-being. He will punish her for transgressions, disobedience or not being pleasing, but rarely is he brutal or sadistic in his punishments.
Nor is BDSM inherently sadistic. When i apply the whip or the rope, the crop or humilliation to my partners, i do so because they thrive on them; if my doing so was an obstacle to their submission, i would change my methods for them accordingly - at the least insofar as i cannot bring them to begin to thrive as stated.

Not to say that a BDSM relationship could not also encompass these things, but the typical BDSM relationship is a PLAY type relationship of serious/severe bondage, whippings, brutality and/or sadism up to and including scarring and possible mutilation.
You, my friend, have been severely misinformed on what BDSM is and entails. Read above for my statement on positive reinforcement.
There aren't so many differences between Gor and 24/7 power exchange as I've lived it and will live it - other than, in my opinion, that the 24/7 D/s power exchange is largely free of the stifling ritualistic nature that seems to be inherent to Gor.

It is also where the Dom/Domme and sub come together for “sessions” of play. There are “safe words” a word or phrase that the sub may utter to say “I have had enough, stop!” or “I am done with this session, time to go home”. A Dom/Domme is rarely “responsible” to his/her sub since she/he does not live with them and goes their own way after the session.
You are speaking of play sessions. These more often than not take place in rented 'dungeons' or playspaces outside the home, and do not encompass all of BDSM - for instance, many public playspaces outright ban many things associated with a relationship as such - nudity, penetrative intercourse of any kind, to name only a FEW aspects of a healthy relationship that are often not permitted in public playspaces, particularly those outside Europe.

Secondly - a safeword should, in my opinion, be present in any situation where one or more persons are at risk of personal harm, be it emotional, spiritual, or physical. Even you, as a Gorean, are not going to tell me that you do not take heed of your Kajira's / Kajirus' health, moods and states so as to let the both of you get the most out of your relationship with them. In my opinion, a relationship where potential harm can be done to a participant if they are treated poorly, or treated in a way that they cannot be treated for any reason at all, should have a safeword in place so that either partner can indicate whether and when their limits are met, or exceeded.

In a lot of these relationships there is no love and rarely even any caring of the sub. It is “play” and just a power trip and enjoyment of cruelty to another for the Dom/Domme.
Pardon the strong language here, but... BULLSHIT. I, for one, care for my slaves and submissives and even clients. Would i not, then i couldn't meet their expectations, nor set expectations for them to meet - nor could i accept and hold responsibility for their and my own actions and feelings. I loved my wife, and she loved me - she and i had been, prior to her passing, loving each other to some degree since she was three years old. Certainly, at that time our love was not a romantic one, but this and many other examples are why you should not make such sweeping generalizations about a lifestyle you seem less than knowledgeable about.

assumption makes an ass out of you and me.

Gorean lifestyle philosophy:

This is what I believe to be the philosophy of the lifestyle and on being a Gorean Master:

Gorean is a lifestyle. It is living by a set of personal “codes”, usually based upon Honor, Truthfulness, Self-discipline, and Integrity, on a daily basis both at home and in the world at large.
As is the BDSM Lifestyle - one that has been around for quite a lot longer than the Gorean one.
You will find many opinions and definitions as to what it is to be "Gorean".

Basically the lifestyle is based upon the fantasy novels called "Gor" that were written by John Norman. You can Google "Gor" or "Gorean" and there are many websites with information. Be cautious, however, for there is as much, if not more, “mis-information” as there is truth. Ultimately you must speak with those who are Gorean to find the truth. Here again, you must be cautious, there are many who claim to be “Gorean” but are in truth wanabee’s, BDSM crossovers, or those who just wish dominance and control over another.
Likewise are there 'Goreans' who see Gor as a means of feeling themselves inherently superior to women (and men) and /or BDSM in general. Your point being?

It is usually best to find a responsible, well managed, Gorean board or chat site where the Administrators take their roles seriously and weed out the riff-raff. 
Or, you know, you could read the Gor novels yourself - any selfrespecting library should have a compliment of them - and interpret for yourself what Gor entails.

The Gorean kajira (slave girl):

The lifestyle may also contain a relationship between a Man and female in a Master/slave relationship, in which, the female gives total control to the Master.
Without, in my opinion, a sense of Balance or equality - as underlined in the following:

The Gorean kajira (slave girl) is "owned" property and can be done with as the Master wishes.

She must be aware that she has no rights, not even to her name, and should therefore have no expectations on how she should be treated. She should know, deep within herself that she will be treated in whatever fashion the Master wishes and must accept that fact. She should expect no special considerations or attentions from the Master.

She may at times be lavishly loved both physically and emotionally and at other times be completely ignored or treated as a piece of furniture. These are a few of the realities of the Gorean kajira.
In other words, the Gorean Lifestyle as you describe it is a mysogenistic, unbalanced ruleset within which a Kajira or Kajirus may not defend herself from harm or desire to be treated differently than the Master decides, even if they feel themselves at risk of harm of any kind; whether it is the Master's wish to destroy them or lavish attention and affection upon them, they have no choice but to accept and obey.

I have been Gorean for almost 20 years, and in my personal view on the lifestyle, a Master treats his slave as a cherished possession and cares for and maintains his kajira in health and well-being. A Master trains his girl and helps her strive to bring forth the true slave that she is deep inside.
Whereas I, as a Dominant in the BDSM lifestyle, acknowledge that my slaves have more facets to their personality than just their submissive sides and strive to help them grow and develope in every way possible, not simply in those ways that suit me.

This is not to say that the girl is not subject to discipline and punishment, she is! A kajira must be totally obedient and pleasing to the Master otherwise she can be whipped, chained, deprived, etc., at the Master's whim.
Were you not just saying that Gor isn't a sadistic lifestyle?

My own personal outlook on punishment is to dispense a punishment fitting to the transgression. I can be firm and provide strong punishments if that is needed. Like I said before, I am not into the abuse type punishments such as burning, cutting, cutting off circulation with bondage or anything like that. I can and will give a good beating or use bondage to put the girl in uncomfortable positions as punishment. I may make her sleep on a cold floor and/or make her eat on her hands & knees from a bowl on the floor.
And this, when performed merely for your own enjoyment, is not sadistic, how?

I get no pleasure or thrill out of punishing my kajira, but I do so to help her learn and develop her inner slave self.
Please refer to my words on Positive Reinforcement, above.

I found the following on the web and I fully agree with the tenants it proscribes:

_____________________

I am Master…..

I am Master—not because I shout orders and fight—but because I do not have to shout, and only fight as a last resort.

I am Master—not because my name starts with a capital—but because I know my strength and my weakness.

I am Master---not because someone calls me that—but because I have mastered my inner self.

I am Master—not because I know more than you—but because I will listen to you and share what little I know.

I am Master---not because I demand blind obedience—but because when a slave gives me her self totally I am brought to my knees with the weight of her gift and the responsibility that comes with it.

I am Master---not because I strut and posture—but because I am strong enough to accept a slave’s gift and not run from it in fear.

I am Master—not because I am so wonderful—but because I have been given something that not many ever have—the gift of a slave’s Heart and Soul

__________________________


My expectations as a Master are obedience and service. As stated before I am not harsh or cruel. I do not even think I am all that demanding.

I expect the home to be kept clean and orderly.

I expect my kajira to care for themselves and for me.

I expect my kajira to be and feel sexy and be sensual.

So here is the first chapter to my novel. If you have any questions, I will be happy to answer them.


-Tek
I've said it before and i'll say it again;

Outside a relationship, 'Master', to me, is a measure of skill - moreover a measure of respect for skill, like one'd state a person to be a "Master craftsman", etcetera.

So I take issue with those people describing themselves as "Master thisorthat" when in my eyes they aren't - either by their not being my master, for immaturity or inexperience, or for any of a thousand different reasons; as it has been pointed out many a times, a Master will be known as such through their actions and words, not through the title they adopt.

Likewise do I take issue with people calling me Master when I don't know them - I've received, and will probably in the future receive, various private messages and instant messenges from submissives who's first adress to me was "Hi Master" - No. I am not your Master. You adressing me as such makes it sound to me like you've drawn, for me, the conclusion that I shall be, inevitably, your Dominant - wich ironically enough makes me not want to be your Dominant.

Likewise, unless you have been instructed by your Dominant to adress me as 'Sir', don't. I've myself been trained to adress other Dominants as Sir, while I submitted to my various mentors and mentrices - and I pass this on to my own submissives, as a token of respect to those that have managed to train my ungrateful self beyond my being a problematic submissive at best, due to not having an inherently submissive bone in my body.

See my name near the top of my post? That'll do. Anjelen - or even Guus, if you can pronounce the hard G. If you can't, that's alright; it gives me no end of amusement to hear you try

That said - once I take on a submissive I do insist on being adressed, by them and them alone, as 'Master'. Not because I have mastered them, but because it is a reminder to me that I must master them. And, admittedly, because it differentiates me from those I will instruct them to refer to as 'Sir'.

Not inherently out of ego, however much it may be an ego stroke. I know fully well, despite or perhaps because of my experience, that I have a lot to learn still - and therein another reason for my insistance.

If you are my submissive, my slave, my toy, or whatever the flavor of the month happens to be -
- Call me Master to remind me of the responcibility I have towards you.
- Call me Master to remind me that I must indeed Master you - as well as myself.
- Call me Master to remind me that I must be worth being called such.
- Call me Master to remind us of the mutual respect that must be.
- Call me Master to differentiate me from other Dominants.
- Call me Master to differentiate between 'play' and 'talk'.
And last but not least,
- Call me Master because you enjoy doing so, and I enjoy hearing you do so.

These reasons are abbreviated for readability - and there are a host of other reasons, and my reasons are mine alone - kudos to all of you who do not agree with me; no offence ment, or taken.

-- Nunc Intellego --
- Anjelen

[davgrant]

Oh my Anjelen that took a while for me to read. Will comment on the topic later.