Here's a question...

[momo]

No... A master/dom has the right to punish, but it's simply ignorant and pointless to punish without reason. Then punishments would get mundane and tiresome really fast. Soon the slave/sub might not anticipate punishment as much, and possibly find even more reason to disobey. (BTW I am a slave/sub.)

[Mere]

Originally Posted by SlutPuppy

Masters:
As a master, do you think you have the right/privilege to punish your slaves whenever you want, simply because you're their master, and you want/need to remind them who they belong to?

Slaves:
As a slave, do you think it's right for a master to be able to punish you for no reason, other than they're your master, and need/want to remind you who you belong to?

The dictionary meaning of "Punish" is, "To punish someone means to make them suffer in some way because they have done something wrong."
Punishment is supposed to be given ONLY when they deserve it. Or as Nix puts it..

Originally Posted by Nixie

No there SHOULD ALWAYS be a good reason! If you are being punished for an unjust cause you will loose faith in your Dom and before you know it your relationship will be over! Its about Trust and inevitably Love. Yes Love. There are many forms of it people. You break that By inflicting hurt or pain it is going to go out the window and end relationship. But then you must ask yourself. Is he punishing you for something you did or something he did and you are his only out let. Then you need communication and you need to take a few steps back and analyze what is really going on. Just my opinion. Which is rambles.

As much as the slave likes to submit itself completely, it hates letting down it's dom. Most of the times, slaves are too sensitive and they will not realize that the dom just needed an "out let," they will probably think they're at fault. Punishment signifies that slave was not as good as it was expected. Punishing for no reason will lead to a bad psychological effect on the slave. This psychological effect might come out in any form, like ambition or may be depression which depends on person to person.

Originally Posted by Leopard

It's really sad that this is even a debated question. If it's for no reason, it isn't punishment.

How do you expect a slave to learn to behave if you punish them on a whim? What does a punishment for breaking a rule achieve then?

Originally Posted by spiritualxtc

Punishments should only be used to correct bad behavior, and nothing more, otherwise you're sending mixed messages.

Agreed with Leo and spiritualxtc. If you punish the slave for no reasons, how will you correct him/her when he/she did a mistake? Slave will probably accept the fact that punishment is normal, and will become stubborn. When you punish the slave when it is needed, it shall not take it seriously. This makes the punishments less effective.
And like in school, the teachers don't punish you because they like to punish you. WHY? Because of how it will effect the child's mind, the same goes for slaves.

Originally Posted by necromancer

I only have the right to punish whenever I wish if she gives me that right. It is a heavy responsibility and I must not abuse the trust she has placed in me. Usually I will punish to teach her something but occasionally i do it for my own pleasure.

I kind of disagree here. The slave's pleasure is as much important in a relationship, as it's master's. Punishing a slave causes discomfort to him/her, and hence should be done for some valid reasons, otherwise the slave will not understand what a punishment means.

Originally Posted by Nixie

Yes If you do as YOU ARE TOLD! If you are randomly punished for NO reason at all. Once again you are going to completely lose trust in your Dom. The only reason if this IS acceptable would BE if at the beginning of the relationship you inform your sub you will randomly test him/her. If NOT. then I stand my ground. Unacceptable.

This seems to be a good idea. Tell the slave, that he/she shall be tested every once in a while. It would prepare the slave for the random punishments. Though, I would prefer to call the "punishments for no reason" as "tasks which are harder than the usual." The moment the term punishment comes up, the slave gets mixed messages. As ChealseaF puts it..

Originally Posted by ChelseaFC

From my slaves view, I hate being punished and therefore I would only expect a punishment for doing somthing wrond/bad. If he says your being punished, I say why and he says because I want to. Then I will refuse the punishment and risk losing my Master, but then, hes not the Master for me.

Originally Posted by Chloe

One of the things that I notice very often on getDare, and this is a seemingly rather contagious thing is that a lot of people confuse punishment with discipline and even more so punishment vs. funishment... >.<

Not only I agree with Leo that it is sad that we need to address this question but I will add that this is probably one of the best way to make me lose all respect for a Dom. I've had one in the past who tried this with me and the only thing he achieved with that was losing me and any hope that I could even consider playing with him again. If I need to be reminded of my place then it means that there's a serious problem with the relationship to begin with. And if a Dom has no other resort than randomly punish to assert his authority then he has no business trying to dominate me. And I don't make exceptions to that.

Not only do I think that there should be a reason but a Dom needs to know what he's actually trying to achieve and teach his sub by using a punishment. If these things are not being considered when either disciplining or punishing then, as spiritualxtc said, then you will simply send mixed messages that not only will not resolve anything but may even aggravate actual problems over time.

But in a situation where a punishment is given without even making the effort to attempt to find out what the problem is then it's unlikely to find out and be able to prevent it to happen again...

Here, I would like to point out that Chloe is right!Punishments are supposed to be hard, and should make the sub realize it's fault. If punishments are funishments(I like that word!), then there is no point.
As a sub, I wouldn't like it if my master punishes me for no reason, because then he would make NO sense at all. And I can't respect a person, when I am under him/her and he/she makes no sense.
It feels funny, when I know how to react/behave, to get the desired behavior from my dom. That's the case when I lose respect for them.
Again, if you're not trying to teach anything, punishments are futile.
WHY is the dom, in such a condition, that he/she has to remind their slave their position. That, I agree, means that something is wrong with the relationship.

Originally Posted by TensionRoom101

I'm a parent first and foremost, and the first rule of parenting is don't reward bad behaviour- and the same applies to D/s dynamics too.

First though, I must analyse just why I feel they have disappointed me. Certainly if they've done their best but fallen short of my criteria, then they should be rewarded for doing their best, and I must check myself on my flawed expectations. To blame my sub because I can't gauge where her limits, tolerances and ability to comply is wrong. No doubt she'll be punishing herself enough without me rubbing salt into her sense of inadequacy. Surely it is I who misjudged her, when she puts her unwavering trust in me to help her grow?

Mike

Yes, it is VERY important to understand WHY the slave is being punished. WHAT exactly happened. Punishing the slave blindly, just because you feel disappointed, is stupidity. Parenting, yes. As the parent can't raise good children if they keep punishing their kids, randomly.
Random punishments will probably lead to slave getting depressed, afraid of the dom, and that's the sign of the relationship being headed to its own doom.

Originally Posted by Anjelen

I, myself would not punish a submissive or slave for any reason other than their deserving it. Training a submissive, in my experience, is far more effective through appropriate reward and as neccisary punishment.

Last but not the least, "B.F.Skinner, the world-famous psychologist, proved through his experiments that an animal rewarded for good behavior will learn much more rapidly and retain what it learns far more effectively than an animal punished for bad behavior. Later studies have shown that the same applies to humans."
To the doms, I think rewarding the slave for good behavior is a better idea. They will learn faster, and better.

[slaveblondie]

I think that it also depends on the seriousness of the relationship. A punishment is to correct bad behaviour in my opinion. Discipline is to prevent. However the term punishment does sometimes just mean 'oooh I'm gonna have to punish you ' But it is normally paired with a 'naughty' act that the dominant person actually doesn't mind.

But I don't personally think it is the right of the dominant to punish without just cause. There is a psychological element to punishment, namely the fact that the sub has disappointed the dominant. If you use punishment as part of the game, then you undermine what is otherwise an essential and necessary part of a submissive/dominant relationship. It loses it's value.

In my experience a punishment is a punishment because the dominant knows and understands the submissive to a point where he can push her and punish her using her dislikes but not push her too far while bearing in mind the crime. It's a sign of a good dominant if he can do this successfully, if he can't, then he's not worth the bother.

So as a slave I don't think a master should be able to just punish when he feels like it, in fact if one did to me, especially when it goes from a game into more control over my life, I would use that as a perfectly adequate reason to terminate the relationship.

SB x

[Nixie]

Originally Posted by Chloe

And yet this is another reason why I don't believe in random punishments... I think that when something like this happens it's usually more beneficial to both partners to step back, discuss and re-evaluate the situation. What went wrong? Why did it go wrong? Is there anything that could help the sub not to fail next time? Etc. Sometimes the answers to these questions are so simple and some problems easily solved by simply communicating. But in a situation where a punishment is given without even making the effort to attempt to find out what the problem is then it's unilikely to find out and be able to prevent it to happen again...

Thank YOU!

Originally Posted by Mere

As much as the slave likes to submit itself completely, it hates letting down it's dom. Most of the times, slaves are too sensitive and they will not realize that the dom just needed an "out let," they will probably think they're at fault. Punishment signifies that slave was not as good as it was expected. Punishing for no reason will lead to a bad psychological effect on the slave. This psychological effect might come out in any form, like ambition or may be depression which depends on person to person.

You are Assuming that ALL "Slaves and Submissives" ARE MINDLESS Now NOT to discredit Some who WANT this, because there are those who DO! But there are some who are GOING to stand back and say WTF! Some are smart enough to realize what is going on and can take those steps back and say ok I know what is going on and address the situation. AND the Dom SHOULD be respectful the their Sub is Smart and intelligent to pick up on a situation He/She was NOT aware of.

AGAIN... This is where Learning Comes into play.... Are you learning to your full extent? Are you understanding in the situation that you are getting yourself into? Can you be able to pull back when things are out of hand? Can you tell the difference between abuse and punishment? Once again I'm repeating myself... THINK!

[Night-1991]

Chloe and Nixie make the best points in the thread. Punishment is supposed to be punishment. If the slave loves to be spanked, then that's not punishment.

The punishment should be more suited to the task that they failed. But even if they have done the task, but they did it wrong...then they should be rewarded instead of punished. Something Mike said.

[Masterjas]

Punishment without reason is at best exasperating your sub (child/ dog etc.), at worst it is abuse. BDSM is NEVER about abuse or exasperating.

NOW, that doesn't mean that the sub will agree (at least at first) that they did something worthy of being punished. I mean honestly, we all do and say things without thinking. That is WHY a Dom HAS to explain the reasons for the punishments to the sub.

Think about it this way....

When you train a dog or other animal , you have don't punish by hitting the dog then walking away. You punish/ reward for a SPECIFIC reason and you make sure the dog KNOWS the reason, otherwise you have just beat the dog, and confused it as well. Also the WAY you do it varies depending on what was done etc. for example

"1. Positive reinforcement adds something to the situation to increase the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.

2. Negative reinforcement removes something from the situation to increase the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.

3. Positive punishment adds something to the situation to decrease the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.

4. Negative punishment removes something from the situation to decrease the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again." (from the wikepedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_training )

Here are 4 basic defenitions of the types of punishment in dog training. Notice what all 4 of the description have in common..... See it yet?
They all say "behaviour being exhibited again". In other words, something wrong was done, then the punishment (whichever type it was) was done for a SPECIFIC reason, not just because the trainer/ owner had a bad day or because they 'felt' like it. Beating a dog, because you 'feel like it' is animal abuse. ( see rule 31 http://101-dog-training-tips.com/Dog...ips_1_32.shtml )

Now even in dog training communication is key. Any animal, human, dog etc. that is repeatedly abused (or feels they are abused), WILL eventually turn on it's master. So to keep if from being abuse, the dog/ sub etc. needs to know WHAT they did, and how to correct it. Punishing anyone over and over NEVER is productive, and at worst will be harmful mentally and physically to the animal/ sub. "Research and my own personal experience shows there can be severe side effects to punishment-based training. A dog trained using punishment will usually result in either a lump of fur so scared to do anything for fear of getting punished, or a wild dog that completely ignores everything because they have become so desensitized to the punishments that it doesn't mean anything anymore." (http://www.collinscanine.com/trainin...punishment.asp)

Lastly, The Dom that can't control himself, punishes in anger etc. SHOULD NOT BE A DOM!!! When we have a sub, we as Dom's are entrusted with their protection, if we violate that, destroy that trust and intentionally harm someone that is shameful. If we do that because we are irritated, or had a bad day....... then it is time to stop BDSM and check into anger management classes.

[Nixie]

I'm a Dog? ^_^

Sorry had to lighten the mood

Edit: I like Funishment... One this That I had to do that I Found worthwhile was list personal Punishments. Note: On there you WILL NOT find spankings BUT other aspects. Make it personal. But again Do it correctly people.

*Needs to stop Looking at this thread now*

[sweetsong]

I think if the tasks assigned are not what the sub wants to do... then you are a bad match. I don't believe the resolution should be to "punish" your sub until they conform, but to civilly part ways and find someone who fits with you and has the same likes and desires.

As far as the OP, I think it all depends on the two people involved. Talk about it. Some people really like "funishment", as Chloe put it. They don't want to just get spanked but they want to hear about how they are "bad" or whatever at the same time. Hey, if that's your kink and both people are happy, more power to ya. In my personal opinion, I don't see a relationship like that lasting very long but obviously that means excessive "funishment" is not a huge kink of mine.

On a side note, I also don't believe that a person taking the sub role is a "child", least of all a "dog." (Well, unless they're pretending for a while. ) But either way, they are just as intelligent and grown up as the dom is. I just can't help but roll my eyes and shake my head when I listen to doms talk about "training" their sub as if they were a child or an animal.

Okay, all that rambling to say... Find someone who fits with you and don't worry about how other people do things. (: Unless, obviously, you can tell there is abuse on either side and then it's probably appropriate to say something.

[Night-1991]

Originally Posted by Nixie

I'm a Dog? ^_^

Sorry had to lighten the mood

And i'm a kitty! ^.^


Mrrrrrroooooowwwwww

Had to do that.

[Leopard]

This was summed up on the first page, but basically:

There are people who just want to use someone to get off, and they will say that talk is too complex and they just wanna have fun. They will say you can punish a slave whenever and it's the master's right to put the slave in their place.

Then there are people that have read a dictionary and understand basic concepts like "punishment is for when someone does something wrong."

[davgrant]

I think most of what i wanted to say has already been told so I won't repeat.

As a master, my slave has given me that right but I will never use it. Mainly the reason being punishing just for the heck of it will degrade the important of it when the punishment is for valid reason. I want my slave to trust me and not be scare of me. And punishing just for the heck of it or to assert control is wrong. If you need to punish to just show who is in control then that means you were never in control. Just an eye stare is enough for me (in RL) or the way you word your sentence should be clue enough to your slave who is control. Control cannot be forcefully taken its given out of love.

[Pixiexo]

As a slave:

I think my master has the right to remind me who i belong to BUT not in the form of punishment.(unless i have doen something wong) But it could be just a really creul task to remind me. that is allowed

[SlutPuppy]

Wow, I didn't think this would get this many replies. Thanks for your input, everyone!


The reason I asked, is because I have been thinking about it -
since it happens to me personally. I've given him the responsibility and made it clear I like being punished, ( I'll use Chole's word for it, Funishment ) but it's not really a 'real' punishment. again with the funishment. Of course there's play talk, but I know I've done nothing wrong.

I think as a Master, they DO have the right to do this - ONLY if the Slave says it's ok, first, and that they actually enjoy it and gain pleasure from it - and also know that they are not actually in trouble, and didn't do anything wrong.

And for the other reason why I asked the question, was because when my Master first told me, "I'm the master so I may punish my slave and remind her who she belongs to, anytime I want, don't you agree?" I had a bit of conflicting emotions. On one hand - yes, I did agree, I had given him the choice of funishing me anytime he wished. But on the other hand, I didn't think it was really something that startled me a bit, because of his use of the word 'punish'. After a moment of thought though, the first side won.

So, in the end. :3 As long as both parties agree that they want to, they like it, they understand the Slave did nothing wrong and isn't actually being punished - Then yes, it's perfectly fine. But they need to remember to think it through, because they're placing a lot of responsibility in their Masters hands, to let them do this.

I really hope all of that made any sense...

[Logical Paradox]

Originally Posted by SlutPuppy

Masters:
As a master, do you think you have the right/privilege to punish your slaves whenever you want, simply because you're their master, and you want/need to remind them who they belong to?

Slaves:
As a slave, do you think it's right for a master to be able to punish you for no reason, other than they're your master, and need/want to remind you who you belong to?

There is a problem here... the right to punish as you see fit, in itself, is the right to punish for a reason. The right to punish for necessity is also a conundrum: What a slave is punished for is based on the slave him/herself saying how strict or how much power they are willing to embue into their dominant. Essentially, a reason for a Dominant to punish a slave could be: You snore, or, you didn't obey an order. Personally, as a more submissive guy, I'd leave the punishment guidelines up to the Dominant themselves, so that I could personally keep track of what is bad and what is good behavior, and if I deem it... childish(?) than I'll approach them on it. From a Dominant point of view, which I am not so much the appropriate for the answering of but I might as well, I'd punish just because I'd have the power to do so and an expulsion of power is something I'd do personally to prove I had it, and not the slave. Reasoning is for people with limits, without Reasoning, you have freedom.

[Merlin]

i think the point is "we" speak of many different things here:

Rolplay punishment: No real punishment more a roleplay thing that has the theme of punishment. Like every roleplay this is a mater of likes speaking nothing against it. I think the point here is just both need to be aware that it is roleplay

Funishment: "you have been a naughty girl" kind of thing. i mean out of pure fun. normally also things that are fun for the slave or at maximum neutral. can even go up to he point of absurdity and, unlike a real punishment, can even function as encouragement. Also here is the danger to mix it up and send false signals, so also here, like with the roleplay, it should be clear that it is not for a bad behavior or can really cause totally mixed feelings and confusion

Sadistic/mindfuck: i talk here of setting up failure, by unsolvable tasks or changing rules mid-task. Producing extreme mental stress for the slave, possible increased by mental degradation. This is sure edge-play... and should be handled appropriate. This needs to be seriously talked about! And both need to really be aware of the risks it involves before you consider it,. A Master or slave who see this extreme version as natural given should really start to think a bit about what they are saying...

Hmm "Because i can"... while i see this also sure a thing you can do and for some it works fine, especially out of a sadistic viewpoint, I still have hard times with it. First because i don't see why to call it a punishment and second because it has always a kind of a sign of weakness connected to it. If i need to rely on fear and punishments to feel in control and aware of my place it often shows just the opposite... how weak my position already is. As i said there are exceptions but in general i see it is often as a sign of fear on the masters side...

And of course there is also the version of letting the slave do things he hates just because the Master likes them, some even likes the fact that the slave hates them (kind of mild sadism). While you now can call that punishment, what some do, i feel this is misleading.
It is a task that the slave hates and is doing for her master anyway because the slave wants to please him (and not out of fear of a punishment). I think i not to long ago started to fully understand the dynamic behind it and in some way i start to see it as the sign for a deep commitment... To call such an act punishment is in my eyes sure misleading in any ways... but anyone their own.